Chess and Logic

[T'ai Chi]

I find it fascinating that even after chess is conquered by computers, there will be xiangqi, Go, and other games that computers still have a hard time with.

I see these games as ways to of course have fun in human to human interactions, but also in making computers better.

I've enjoyed playing Fisherandom chess a lot.

 

[Jyera]

Re: Re: Re: Chess and Logic

(About "Does Chess improves logical thinking?")

This question has been studied empirically, and the answer seems to be "no." Teaching people chess doesn't appear to improve their abilities on logical reasoning, nor does logical reasoning appear to improve with practice at chess playing.

I would appreciate if you are able to point me to the empirical study.

I am not be surprise if the empirical studies show that it does not improve logical thinking. But there are certainly many ways to fail to improve logical thinking. Including playing without thought.

I believe there is a well-recognized link between logical abilities and skill at chess playing, but it appears to be interest related -- i.e. people who are good at logic seem to like chess more than average, and thus practice it until they get some degree of skill. But this is like the link between height and basketball playing: playing basketball won't make you tall, but if you're taller than average, you're more likely to be good at basketball, to play it regularly, and to enjoy playing it.

I agree.

And to add, it is socially related. If everyone in your community plays chess, you'd pick it up under social influence.

This leads to the next question.
Would you then be more logical than if you were not in a chess playing community?

- Jyera

 

[Jyera]

Chess improve deductive skill.

After thinking ...
Here's an illustration/explanation.

I wanted to move my White Pawn to the square e4.
I checked that there is a Black Knight on square f6.
According to my knowledge of how a Knight could move, I DEDUCE that the Black Knight can capture my Pawn on square.

I could also DEDUCE that the opponent will likely capture my Pawn if I place it on e4. This is because I do not have any other piece that is able to provide a threat to capture on square e4.

I therefore decide not to move my Pawn to e4.

I think this shows that chess involve exercising deduction.
So ...

Chess improve skill of deduction.
Deduction is one of the logical reasoning process (deduction, inference, induction).
Therefore chess could improve logical reasoning (thinking).


- Jyera.

 

[Cleopatra]

Jyera, what you describe above is not necessarily the outcome of improved logical thinking but it can just demonstrate a better familiarity with the rules of the game along with the improved skills in playing the game that practice brings.

It's practice and studying of openings and previous games that make you a better player

 

[drkitten]

Re: Chess improve deductive skill.

After thinking ...
Here's an illustration/explanation.

I wanted to move my White Pawn to the square e4.
I checked that there is a Black Knight on square f6.
According to my knowledge of how a Knight could move, I DEDUCE that the Black Knight can capture my Pawn on square.

[

... [snip] ...

Except that this kind of deductive reasoning is not how people, expecially chess experts, appear to play chess. Instead, it's played as a pattern recognition game, where the expert looks at the board, "remembers" similar situations from previous games, and selects moves that are similar to the moves that worked in those previous situations. I'd describe it more as "analogical" reasoning than as "logical" reasoning.

What makes a chess expert an expert is precisely this ability, and the fact that s/he doesn't have to "deduce" anything about the board. This applies in much broader domains than just chess -- if I'm driving and a light turns red in front of me, I don't "deduce" that the red light means stop, "deduce" that, since the car I'm driving right now is a standard-shift, the brake is in the center, and then press on that pedal. No, I simply hit the brake, which at this point I can do WITHOUT need of deduction, since I more or less just "know" (read, "remember") how to react to a red light. I touch-type the same way; I can't tell you which letters are adjacent to the 'h' key, but I can type at 120wpm. My "knowledge" of the typewriter keyboard has passed beyond the stage of deductive logic and into a level of expertise where I can simply do the task at hand, without having to reason about it.

 

[Jyera]

Jyera, what you describe above is not necessarily the outcome of improved logical thinking but it can just demonstrate a better familiarity with the rules of the game along with the improved skills in playing the game that practice brings.

It's practice and studying of openings and previous games that make you a better player

I agree that to remember the rules are a matter of memory.
But if it is the first time I place a Pawn on e4 which is threaten by a Knight on f6, I do think that I am forced to exercise my deductive skill in order to avoid capture. Even if it does exercise deductive skill, is it significant?

I can agree that practice and studying of openings and previous games make you a better player.

But I'm keen to explore how does it make me better?

Does it make me more logical and therefore I improve in the next game. Or does it make me more intuitive so that I win in the next game?

My objective is not to win games, but to find out how playing chess can benefit logical thinking, so that improvement in logical thinking the the chess player can be useful in other areas. Eg. doing well in logic in school.

- Jyera.

 

[Jyera]

Re: Re: Chess improve deductive skill.

Except that this kind of deductive reasoning is not how people, expecially chess experts, appear to play chess. Instead, it's played as a pattern recognition game, where the expert looks at the board, "remembers" similar situations from previous games, and selects moves that are similar to the moves that worked in those previous situations. I'd describe it more as "analogical" reasoning than as "logical" reasoning. ...snipe...

drkitten, I agree with you.
But consider this.

Some people who teaches chess to young children touted that it improves logical thinking which helps with doing maths in school.

And it seemed to be a universally accepted concept that
"Playing chess help to make you more logical in your thinking."
(Sorry I don't have any stats)

Is that wrong?
What's wrong?

- Jyera

 

[drkitten]

Re: Re: Re: Chess improve deductive skill.

drkitten, I agree with you.
But consider this.

Some people who teaches chess to young children touted that it improves logical thinking which helps with doing maths in school.

And it seemed to be a universally accepted concept that
"Playing chess help to make you more logical in your thinking."

Some people also believe that sleeping with your bed aligned in a north-south direction will improve your health. All three beliefs appear to be incorrect when studied carefully.

There was also a common belief in the 19th and early 20th centuries that teaching schoolchildren classical languages (Latin and Greek) would improve their logical thinking. This also appears to be false.

The world is full of common but incorrect beliefs. Part of the task of scientists (in the case of much of the chess studies, the psychology department at Carnegie-Mellon University, I believe) is to sort through common beliefs and determine which ones are actually true.

 

[drkitten]

I agree that to remember the rules are a matter of memory.
But if it is the first time I place a Pawn on e4 which is threaten by a Knight on f6, I do think that I am forced to exercise my deductive skill in order to avoid capture. Even if it does exercise deductive skill, is it significant?

Not really, no.

I can agree that practice and studying of openings and previous games make you a better player.

But I'm keen to explore how does it make me better?

Does it make me more logical and therefore I improve in the next game. Or does it make me more intuitive so that I win in the next game?

It appears to give you a better perceptive ability to see what is important and unimportant about a given position, and a better memory for similar positions from which you can select the best move.

 

[Jyera]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jyera
I agree that to remember the rules are a matter of memory.
But if it is the first time I place a Pawn on e4 which is threaten by a Knight on f6, I do think that I am forced to exercise my deductive skill in order to avoid capture. Even if it does exercise deductive skill, is it significant?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really, no.

It appears to give you a better perceptive ability to see what is important and unimportant about a given position, and a better memory for similar positions from which you can select the best move.

Perhaps it is not significant to adult or experienced players.

In the case of a young child, just developing his thinking skill, I think that (the deductive exercise) is significant?
It might be like a baby learning to take the first step in walking.
The first steps are often the most agonising but most important.

After some thought, I realized that even for adults can benefit. Provided they attempt to improve their chess skill. They have to attempt to improve by anaysing chess position explicitly and logically, instead of relying on intuitive "auto-pilot".

There are plenty of chess concepts beyond basic movement of pieces according to the rules.
Some as suggested by LuxFerum,
"pawn structure, domain of the center, pieces coordination, closed position, etc."
Others like Pin, Skewer, Fork, DiscoveryCheck, DoubleCheck.

Each of these concepts is like a new weapon in the hand of the player. Attempting to explore and wield these "weapon" ANALYTICALLY, challenges the player and develop new skill while exercising memory retention and deduction.

 

[Jyera]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Chess improve deductive skill.

Some people also believe that sleeping with your bed aligned in a north-south direction will improve your health. All three beliefs appear to be incorrect when studied carefully.

There was also a common belief in the 19th and early 20th centuries that teaching schoolchildren classical languages (Latin and Greek) would improve their logical thinking. This also appears to be false.

The world is full of common but incorrect beliefs. Part of the task of scientists (in the case of much of the chess studies, the psychology department at Carnegie-Mellon University, I believe) is to sort through common beliefs and determine which ones are actually true.

In the face of incorrect belief ("chess improves logical thinking", what would be our advise and action?

Should we adopt an attitude to ban people from touting that chess is a good game that improves analytical skills and logical thinking?

 

[drkitten]

Perhaps [...]

It might be like [....]

After some thought, I realized that [...]

There are many beliefs you can imagine ('realize') in the privacy of your own armchair. Do you have any evidence to support any of these beliefs?

I was (re)reading The Mouse on the Moon last night, in which the author comes up with a clever plot idea based on a previously unknown atomic particle with variable charge --- it can switch from positive to negative and back, thus allowing huge amounts of energy to be released from ordinary materials such as iron filings. This new particle, found only in expensive wine, can not only solve the world's energy problems, but provide a rocket fuel that would work for commuter flights to the moon.

There's only one problem. This book is fiction. All the actual evidence we have says that this particle doesn't exist.

Similarly, all the evidence we have is that playing chess does not improve logical thinking. Rather than trying to figure out how it might (but doesn't), you might try to figure out what chess playing does do.