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Cheating at Roulette

case sensitive said:
Those Black Jack cardcounters are considered cheaters right? Even though they only use their brains. So you are allowed to bet your money, to use your brain betting your money. But not use your full potential while playing. Is this the case anywhere else in life? "I am sorry Sir, you are thinking to much now and that means I can't fool you. Stop thinking or leave my store."
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It's not illegal; but the casinos have a vested interested in booting anyone who wins too much; and can claim cheating without any proof whatsoever as long as they don't try to make it a legal accusation. People who are able to count cards without any supplementary assistance (usually custom-created hidden computers), using only their brains, are almost impossible to catch, and it's impossible to make an accusation of cheating stick. For that reason, most casinos have increased the number of decks in the "shoe", in an attempt to make unassisted counting prohibitively difficult.
 
luchog said:
People who are able to count cards without any supplementary assistance (usually custom-created hidden computers), using only their brains, are almost impossible to catch[...]
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It's not the physical counting that is caught (first). It is the change in the betting pattern. Suddenly increasing bet size under certain situations will draw the attention of casino employees.

The book mentioned earlier, Bringing Down the House, discusses ways the author's alleged group of "cheaters" used to make it look like there was no way that it was the better who was counting. And it was true - the better was simply watching for signs or listening for verbal cues from his accomplices. In fact, they would plant the card counter at/near a table, possibly making small, innocuous bets. When the card count was very favorable, the better would catch the signal, go to the table and throw down large bets, leaving very soon thereafter. They were still caught eventually, and the casinos banned them (and did other less pleasant things, if the author is telling the truth).

CT
 
case sensitive said:
Those Black Jack cardcounters are considered cheaters right? Even though they only use their brains. So you are allowed to bet your money, to use your brain betting your money. But not use your full potential while playing. Is this the case anywhere else in life? "I am sorry Sir, you are thinking to much now and that means I can't fool you. Stop thinking or leave my store."


What is the crime? Illegal use of brain?
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Card counting is not illegal, merely unwelcome. Casinos have the right to refuse service to anybody they do not like. Once you are declared persona non grata at a casino you can be arrested for tresspassing if you return (or so I have been given to understand in a long ago incarnation ;)). Bettors can be banned for just being unusually lucky, although I have never heard of such a thing happening.

There are laws that say that you cannot bring cheating devices into the casinos, but there might be a loophole when it comes to communication devices (cell phones, for example) that can be used to communicate with people who are off-site and are using computers to increase the odds of winning. It would be difficult to outlaw the use of cell phones in Las Vegas.
 
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Robin said:
OK, fair enough, I was going by the strategy someone earlier said they used.

OK,you have a ball spinning one direction, a turntable spinning the other, you have to collect sufficient information to judge the angular velocity of the turntable, the speed of the ball and the position of the ball relative to the turntable, you have to get back a calculation as to the quadrant and then place a bet all in 3-4 seconds. Using 70's 8 bit technology mind you.
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I believe that you are making some big assumptions here.

Why is the wheels angular velocity necessary?

Why is the speed of the ball necessary?


Now, I can understand why this assumption might be made. Someone schooled in physics calculus, for example, would automatically approach this problem in this manner.

But what about someone schooled in simple statistics? Would they approach this problem in that matter? Clearly they would not. They would simply start taking samples...
 
CriticalThanking said:
It's not the physical counting that is caught (first). It is the change in the betting pattern. Suddenly increasing bet size under certain situations will draw the attention of casino employees.

snip

CT
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I'd like to add also staring intently at the table, esp the cards, constant glancing at the discards, little talking, no excitement shown when given pat hands, esp 21 etc.
Go to bj21.com for more info.
Seriously, it's a gambling site. :)
 
Metullus said:
snip

There are laws that say that you cannot bring cheating devices into the casinos, but there might be a loophole when it comes to communication devices (cell phones, for example) that can be used to communicate with people who are off-site and are using computers to increase the odds of winning. It would be difficult to outlaw the use of cell phones in Las Vegas.
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The Indian Casinos in my area have created a sort of dead zone cell phone wise.
At least 6 yrs ago they did.
No pit boss in his/her right mind would allow you to talk on a phone or even text mess. while playing. With roulette-it would take to long. With 21-,"Yeah I've got 9s and the dealer up card is a 7. Split? OK." This conversation would just not do.
 
Robin:

Re: all the physical properties needed to figure the roulette wheel:

Another thing to keep in mind is that the wheels are standardized. SO many of the factors involved in such a calculation, such as mass of the wheel and ball, surface consistency, speed (rpms), and similar things are already known and can be hard coded. Most casinos take care to make sure their machines are up to par (to keep from losing money), so you could use these standard measurements to be fairly accurate, I'd think.
 
Well now, I have done very little gambling and no Roulette gambling at all.

However, I would think that it would be possible to render these various electronic prediction machines useless by making sure that the patrons place their bets BEFORE the ball is thrown. Allowing the patrons to place bets while the ball is in play seems to be rather foolish.

For those familiar with the playing of Roulette, if some nice person could they please clarify if bets are accepted after the ball is in play or not, then I sure would appreciate your observations.
 
Just Me said:
The Indian Casinos in my area have created a sort of dead zone cell phone wise.
At least 6 yrs ago they did.
No pit boss in his/her right mind would allow you to talk on a phone or even text mess. while playing. With roulette-it would take to long. With 21-,"Yeah I've got 9s and the dealer up card is a 7. Split? OK." This conversation would just not do.
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I can think of several uses for cell phones in a casino that would not involve any talking at all. I would not even need to have one on me if I was the bettor. The cool thing is that the mere possession of a cell phone would not be prima facia evidence of anything neferious, whereas the same could not be said of, say, a walkie-talkie disguised as a hearing aid.
 
rockoon said:
I believe that you are making some big assumptions here.

Why is the wheels angular velocity necessary?

Why is the speed of the ball necessary?


Now, I can understand why this assumption might be made. Someone schooled in physics calculus, for example, would automatically approach this problem in this manner.

But what about someone schooled in simple statistics? Would they approach this problem in that matter? Clearly they would not. They would simply start taking samples...
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I am not making assumptions at all. The people involved claim that they achieved it using physical equations. For example they claim to measure the speed of the ball by clicking when it reaches a certain point on the stator and then again when it reaches that point again.

I was merely pointing out that the speed of the rotor and the position of the ball relative to the numbers would also be required to find the position where it lands.

I know it has also been done by samples, exploiting imperfections in the wheel's design - but that is not the particular instance I am addressing.
 
Huntsman said:
Robin:

Re: all the physical properties needed to figure the roulette wheel:

Another thing to keep in mind is that the wheels are standardized. SO many of the factors involved in such a calculation, such as mass of the wheel and ball, surface consistency, speed (rpms), and similar things are already known and can be hard coded. Most casinos take care to make sure their machines are up to par (to keep from losing money), so you could use these standard measurements to be fairly accurate, I'd think.
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However I understand that these had to be calibrated at each site, due to different conditions. For example the wheels are not always perfectly level.
 
Crossbow said:
Well now, I have done very little gambling and no Roulette gambling at all.

However, I would think that it would be possible to render these various electronic prediction machines useless by making sure that the patrons place their bets BEFORE the ball is thrown. Allowing the patrons to place bets while the ball is in play seems to be rather foolish.

For those familiar with the playing of Roulette, if some nice person could they please clarify if bets are accepted after the ball is in play or not, then I sure would appreciate your observations.
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Rockoon has indicated that from the time the ball is placed into motion and the bets are stopped is about 3-4 seconds.

Earlier the UK gaming laws were quoted saying the ball has to complete 3 rotations after which the bets are stopped.

I am not sure what the practice in Nevada in the 70's was.
 
one mississippi two mississippi three mississippi four mississippi....

I do not deal the wheel as I have been a full time poker dealer for years. I will be sure to ask a novelty dealer the current procedure for stoping action here in Connecticut.

I do however know for certain that this happens while the wheel and ball are in motion. The 3-4 seconds was given by BobK.
 
rockoon said:
one mississippi two mississippi three mississippi four mississippi....

I do not deal the wheel as I have been a full time poker dealer for years. I will be sure to ask a novelty dealer the current procedure for stoping action here in Connecticut.

I do however know for certain that this happens while the wheel and ball are in motion. The 3-4 seconds was given by BobK.
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My apologies for the mis-citation. The information you have supplied has been very useful to me in any case.

Do you have an estimate (just off-hand)for the number of pockets bounced by the ball before it settles? I was kind of thinking that the ball might bounce off and miss a full revolution in some cases. However I realise I might have been thinking of a small novelty wheel rather than a real one.
 
Metullus said:
I can think of several uses for cell phones in a casino that would not involve any talking at all. I would not even need to have one on me if I was the bettor. The cool thing is that the mere possession of a cell phone would not be prima facia evidence of anything neferious, whereas the same could not be said of, say, a walkie-talkie disguised as a hearing aid.
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I guess hitting certain buttons to vreate a tone and sending the tone to another person w/ a comp to decipher the tone could be used to count the cards.
Let's get together. Money is to be made!:cool:
 
andyandy said:
the only system that i know for roulette is based on the gambler's fallacy....

i've had heated conversations with a friend of a friend who swears by his system....
wait till the roulette wheel has had more than 6 reds in a row,
bet on black
if that loses then double up your bet on black
if that loses then double up again.....

that's the kinda system that the casinos love :D
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They love them so much that many casinos have installed roulette tote boards that show the past 12 numbers. I can't understand why they don't do the same thing for craps tables given the number of craps betting systems there are and the number of superstitions concerning casino dice.
 
Admiral said:
While I haven't read these books (which sound fascinating), has anyone read "Bringing Down the House"? That's about counting cards in blackjack, which is a different ball game simply because the game has a memory- if you know that there've been a lot of queens earlier in the six card shuffle, it's more likely they'll show up, and so on...

The trouble is that if you win too much at a game, particularly if you have the slightest suspicious look about you- you're quietly counting to yourself, you're tapping your foot incessantly, you have a hearing aid or keep looking down at a screen or whatever- it's what casino employees are trained to notice.

So, in my opinion, cheating at Roulette is an interesting academic puzzle that seems completely unreasonable to perform in a casino. It would be hard enough in lab conditions with bulky camera equipment and laser timers- trying to do it with concealed gadgets while trying to act natural in a crowded room with surveillance cameras and 400-pound casino employees watching you? Ridiculous.
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Your description of casino surveillence is an accurate description of the current situation, but the 70's are sometimes referred to as "the golden age of casino cheating" because that is the period when the corporations started buying up casinos and the east-coast MBAs decided to cut costs by reducing the surveillance departments.

Still, I'm a bit doubtful as to the veracity of the story.
 
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