• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Chastity vows

Puppycow

Penultimate Amazing
Puppycow
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
34,104
Location
Yokohama, Japan
The president of Paraguay, fathered at least one child (by his own admission) and perhaps three, by different women while he was a Roman Catholic bishop.

It seems like the chastity rules, which go against natural human instinct and physiological needs, are a bit of a problem for the church. Why is sex a sin according to Catholicism? Also, what other religions have celibate (at least in theory) clerics? IIRC, Jain monks are also supposed to be celibate. They are expected to live as ascetics. I feel bad for people who are tricked into becoming celibate or ascetics by religion.
 
From the Catechism of the CC:

"All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate 'for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.' Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to 'the affairs of the Lord,' they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God."
 
Puppycow said:
The president of Paraguay, fathered at least one child (by his own admission) and perhaps three, by different women while he was a Roman Catholic bishop.

It seems like the chastity rules, which go against natural human instinct and physiological needs, are a bit of a problem for the church. Why is sex a sin according to Catholicism? Also, what other religions have celibate (at least in theory) clerics? IIRC, Jain monks are also supposed to be celibate. They are expected to live as ascetics. I feel bad for people who are tricked into becoming celibate or ascetics by religion.
Click to expand...

In what way are people tricked into being celibate. It is not like they hide the fact in the job description for Catholics priest.

On the subject in general I agree it is tough to keep up the celibacy vow within the Chuch. Falling in love with someone, and the desire to raise a family leads to a lot of priests etc leaving the priesthood.

I know within the Catholic Church that they vet canidates pretty tightly. Even with declining numbers, the Church realises the sacrifices that need to be made are well beyond what many of us a capable of.
 
Last edited:
MarekM said:
From the Catechism of the CC:

"All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate 'for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.' Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to 'the affairs of the Lord,' they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God."
Click to expand...

The only problem is that after a while it tends to itch, joyous heart or not.
 
MG1962 said:
In what way are people tricked into being celibate. It is not like they hide the fact in the job description for Catholics priest.

On the subject in general I agree it is tough to keep up the celibacy vow within the Chuch. Falling in love with someone, and the desire to raise a family leads to a lot of priests etc leaving the priesthood.

I know within the Catholic Church that they vet canidates pretty tightly. Even with declining numbers, the Church realises the sacrifices that need to be made are well beyond what many of us a capable of.
Click to expand...

I agree. There is no more trickery than there is for an American to voluntarily accept military duty, and then find that a fight has been picked with some foreign country and that he is expected to perform. In fact, less so, as the threat for a priest is not contingent on anyone else's actions. Yes, a priest may not know what temptation might be brought to bear, but it's not beyond intellectually grasping, and resigning is always a possibility.

Why is sex a sin according to Catholicism?
Click to expand...
As geni says, "sex" may not be; depends on how you define it. Sex that doesn't result in intercourse (Clinton's sin?) is, perhaps, a relatively minor sin of courting temptation; adultery (intercourse outside of marriage) is, and more so adultery in spite of vows of chastity (breach of solemn promise, and abuse of exalted position). It is wrong and sinful because the church says so, and they say so because tradition based upon Christ's example as described in the Bible deems it so.

They are expected to live as ascetics. I feel bad for people who are tricked into becoming celibate or ascetics by religion.
Click to expand...

Nope. They sought their position of trust based on their promises, and then abrogated the contract. That behavior would have netted them the death penalty at times in the past; today, it would only net them the minor shame associated with resigning their position in order to regain their ability to dally as they please. As they choose to enjoy both, then they subject themselves to as much shame as can be brought to bear, IMHO, as well as much penalty as contract abrogation and accusations of breach of trust as can be brought to bear.
 
Last edited:
Honestly I don't get this. Are they allowed to masturbate? I wonder how many of them are truly celibate for their entire lives. Are you allowed to have wet dreams?

Anyway this whole thing sounds like a kinda sex/domination/submission game that people play in the BDSM community. Maybe all priests should be required to wear a CB3000? (google it).
 
Well, he broke his vow of celibacy, but he's still a good Catholic. He didn't use birth control.

Ward
 
wardenclyffe said:
Well, he broke his vow of celibacy, but he's still a good Catholic. He didn't use birth control.

Ward
Click to expand...
FWIW:

To slightly correct you, he's only still a good Catholic if he went to confession and did the pennance assigned.

He otherwise can't (by rule) receive communion until his sin of fornication is reconciled. If he ain't receiving communion at mass, he's not in any way shape or form "still a good Catholic."

He'd know this, being a priest at one point in his life.

DR
 
Speaking as an ex-Catholic, I don't need chastity vows. Unfortunately. :mad:
 
NewtonTrino said:
Honestly I don't get this. Are they allowed to masturbate? I wonder how many of them are truly celibate for their entire lives. Are you allowed to have wet dreams?
Click to expand...

Come on. Is it really that hard to think like a prude?

Are they allowed to masturbate?
Click to expand...
Masturbation is right out, as it is for all Catholics. It is waste of potential (at least for the male), as well as temptation to further sexual pleasure.

I wonder how many of them are truly celibate for their entire lives.
Click to expand...
How many Catholics truly adhere to the strictions against birth control, even though the penalties (like excommunication) are even more socially stigmatizing?

Are you allowed to have wet dreams?
Click to expand...
Sure, I'm allowed, though I must admit that it doesn't.... Oh - you mean Catholics, which I gave up longer ago than dreams. Wet dreams are not normally considered willful acts, so one is not required to attempt to suppress them, however one would possibly go about that. Tie a yellow ribbon...?

Anyway this whole thing sounds like a kinda sex/domination/submission game that people play in the BDSM community.
Click to expand...
It is not unnoticed that there is somewhat of a parallel between BDSM and Pauline doctrine on sex; many have commented upon the parallels and cause/effect relationship between self-flagellation, for example, and sexual denial - it runs as an implicit undercurrent through the Da Vinci Code, one of many.

Maybe all priests should be required to wear a CB3000? (google it).
Click to expand...
I suppose we'd have to ask an expert, perhaps like yourself. Is it effective? More to the point, is it fun? And who do you give the key to - the local bishop? Perhaps the most senior female in the local police department - ah, there's justice.
 
Last edited:
NewtonTrino said:
Anyway this whole thing sounds like a kinda sex/domination/submission game that people play in the BDSM community. Maybe all priests should be required to wear a CB3000? (google it).
Click to expand...
OK, you got me intrigued so I did:

The transparency of the clear device makes it very intriguing while being worn. It also comes in Neon and Black for the adventurous man.
Click to expand...

Doesn't appear that the Catholic church is their target audience. :)
 
shadron said:
Masturbation is right out, as it is for all Catholics. It is waste of potential (at least for the male), as well as temptation to further sexual pleasure.
Click to expand...

Can we pursue this one just a little further please? I can understand the second part of this sentence as to why maturbation is not acceptable to the Church, although AFAIK, there is nothing in the Bible which explicitly forbids it (I am familiar withthe Onan story).

But as far as "waste of potential", I also understand that the Church does not disapprove of the rythm method, which also a "waste of potential" - well, most of the time anyway :). So it seems to me that one method of sexual relief (masturbation) is not allowable and another (intercourse while a woman is not fertile) is.

And I will leave aside the life span of a single sperm, the chances of any single sperm actually impregnating a woman (the number of sperm per ejaculation is a bit of overkill), and the waste of potential in women every month that they do not fall pregnant.

Norm
 
Last edited:
fromdownunder said:
Can we pursue this one just a little further please? I can understand the second part of this sentence as to why maturbation is not acceptable to the Church, although AFAIK, there is nothing in the Bible which explicitly forbids it (I am familiar withthe Onan story).

But as far as "waste of potential", I also understand that the Church does not disapprove of the rythm method, which also a "waste of potential" - well, most of the time anyway :). So it seems to me that one method of sexual relief (masturbation) is not allowable and another (intercourse while a woman is not fertile) is.

And I will leave aside the life span of a single sperm, the chances of any single sperm actually impregnating a woman (the number of sperm per ejaculation is a bit of overkill), and the waste of potential in women every month that they do not fall pregnant.

Norm
Click to expand...

All I can really say by way of support is that that was the argument given to me in my tender youth. Rhythm is allowed but is not really encouraged; ideally, you should always intend to create a child whenever you engage in the act (all the better to ruin the fun, of course). The Catholic Church trusts tradition more heavily than it does scripture, and traditionally no one knew anything concrete about human sperm until Anton von Leeuenhoek did some peeking and wrote about 1720:

What I investigate is only what, without sinfully defiling myself, remains as a residue after conjugal coitus. And if your Lordship should consider that these observations may disgust or scandalise the learned, I earnestly beg your Lordship to regard them as private and to publish or destroy them as your Lordship thinks fit.
Click to expand...
So no one could have conceived of the waste explicit in sex before that time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom