Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Your mind reading ability is really extraordinary. You should definitely go after that million dollar prize.
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Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed
- Thread starter kookbreaker
- Start date
Except that Kirk was well involved in the Covid conspiracy theory scene, which was and is riddled with Nazi antivaxers. And they use Nuremberg as a call for violence.
Well actually for a trial where they are both the prosecution and the jury, as well as the judge
FFS.
The antivaxers love to invoke Nuremberg. They call for the execution of the doctors. A lot of them are actual Nazis (see my pictures).
the antivaxers want to be prosecution, judge, jury and executioner.
I am not saying anything about the actual Nuremberg trials but the ahistorical interpretation that the antivaxers push and which Kirk would have had to have been far more stupid than he was to have not noticed.
It depends what it is called for, but if one is in a culture where this is acceptable. And doesn't call it out
The same demonstration, IIRC.
Then at best one doesn't mind hanging out with Nazis.
Don't be silly. I'm talking about antivaxers who are often pushing antisemitic conspiracy theories as well. In fact it's very difficult to be in that subculture without being immersed in antisemitic tropes.
Anti-vaccine activism melded with US antisemitism - study | The Jerusalem Post
This phenomenon is occurring through an “enabled and empowered anti-science ecosystem, with antisemitism and the targeting of Jewish biomedical scientists at its core.”
www.jpost.com
What do you think, this first result for jikkyleaks Nuremberg is. There was a lot more but luckily most have been removed by now.
Jikkyleaks was a very prominent antivaxer with a large following.
When people from the antivax movement/Covid conspiracy movement talk about Nuremberg trials they know what they mean within that group. And they are not unhappy about associating with Nazis.
dirtywick
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2006
- Messages
- 12,556
two question for you:
on a scale of 1 to 10, how unfair is it to call charlie kirk a fascist propagandist?
do you think that calling for nuremberg trials for your political opponents is more, less, or equally dehumanizing?
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
That may be the result, but I don't think it was the intention. Charlie Kirk was a big supporter of Israel. He described Auschwitz as "the greatest horror of the 20th century". He demanded 'Nuremberg-style trials' because he thought people should be put to death for their 'crimes' like the Nazis were. He wasn't minimizing it it, he was exalting it. Neo Nazis may be trying to claim Charlie Kirk as one of theirs, but he wasn't.
Where it gets interesting is that Charlie Kirk was a big supporter of Israel and yet he recognized that what Israel was doing in Gaza was genocide, and he didn't shy away from stating it. He lost a lot of funding for that, and yet didn't back down. This wasn't because he was an antisemite or secret Nazi, but because genocide is genocide and Israel shouldn't get a pass just because Hitler did it to the Jews. He must have recognized the cognitive dissonance there. You can't describe abortion in the US as worse than the Holocaust and then ignore an actual genocide - at least not if you have any empathy or intellectual honesty - which means Charlie Kirk did have it.
Charlie Kirk embraced the conservative Christian Nationalist worldview and pushed its talking points hard using his extensive debating skills. They had captured him well. But by age 31 he was starting to develop independent thoughts that didn't always align with the narrative. He was listening to what young people said instead just browbeating them with dogma. That's what makes his death such a tragedy.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Sure. I don't think anyone has claimed that either of those don't exist, nor that some overlap can't happen.
Still not sure how you get from a handful of nutjobs to opining that Kirk being a bad person for wanting trials for crimes against humanity for people he believed were doing horrible and blatantly unethical things to kids. It's a bit of a leap.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
I'm standing by my guilt by kevin bacon assessment of your fallacy.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Ahh yes, the coded messages. It's nice that we have you to decipher the secret meanings for us I suppose. Without you, none of us would know what the special secret code actually secretly meant!
The Atheist
Psychopath
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 37,878
I'm sure I've never seen anyone skate such a convoluted path to avoid retracting an idiotic statement.
Funny stuff.
Funny stuff.
Helen
Implicitly explicit
Most people know, it's quite a common dogwhistle. You're the one who needs decoding, apparently.
He didn't simply want trials for crimes against humanity. He called for Nuremberg trials. A phrase with specific and well understood connotations in the subculture he was active in. And one that they don't try to hide. See my previous quote about "Nuremberg, trapdoors and ropes". That sort of comment is frequently made when antivaxers talk about Nuremberg. He could not have missed it. He knew the connotations and that it was a call to violence, just as football fans know their chants.
It would have still been pretty obscene to have "merely" called for trials for crimes against humanity of medics for taking a medical decision he disagreed with. But he didn't.
One may argue about whether trans people are men or women, but it is vile to pretend that trying to help them is a crime against humanity. It makes a mockery of the victims of actual crimes against humanity. But that's a feature not a bug for many misusing such calls against medics.
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Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
When they say Nuremburg trials they actually mean Volksgerichtshof.
I don't have an issue with calling anybody who displays in this way a Nazi or fascist. I was more pointing out the left's increasing habit of labelling just about anything that doesn't fit with them as such. That's all.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
It's called fighting fire with fire, and we all know what the end result will be. You use the same tactics as them, you become them - and the world burns.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
I’m skeptical. I suspect it’s more akin to the “okay” sign that everyone decided was a secret signal for racism, and anyone who used it was engaging in coded messages. Or when the ((())) that had meant virtual hugs for all of the early netizens suddenly got transformed into some sort of antisemitism, and anyone who offered emotional support was accused of hating Jews.
People assume that something is a secret hidden message laden with meaning. Then they start telling everyone it’s a secret message with a nefarious meaning. A lot of people hop on board with that idea because they were TOLD it’s a bad thing.
And suddenly some poor random truck driver who gives an okay sign in traffic gets run through the gristmill for no good reason.
Or, you know, people who actually respect the Nuremberg trials for what they did and how they did it get assumed to be would-be lynchers by those with a political axe to grind.
“Oh sure they didn’t actually ever say that horrible thing, but everyone knows that’s what they really meant because that’s what the secret message means, and everyone knows the secret language”
You end up arguing with your own (or someone else’s) assumptions, with nothing but belief beneath it.
Helen
Implicitly explicit
You're wrong. Those who are outspoke neonazis do say what they mean; ie hang them. Anyone who, like Kirk, is familiar with the extreme right wing knows this. It is frequently and outspokenly used in militant neonazi environments, they talk about it resulting in summary executions. This is not a secret, they do not keep it a secret. Nuremburg means exactly that to the extreme right, and to parts of the antivaxx movement. Those who do not explicitly mention the executions also know exactly what Nuremburg means in this context.