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Charlie Gard, the Pope, and Trump

I have my suspicions that if they had managed to get him transferred to home with the required life support systems they would have immediately started down the legal route to delay it being removed. GOSH has legal resources that care commissioning bodies won't be able to match.
 
An interesting aspect of the reporting was that almost every news report I heard stated that the parents intended to pay for the medical staff outside the hospital themselves, only one or two added the information that they then intended to claim/litigate it back from the NHS.
 
GOSH has legal resources that care commissioning bodies won't be able to match.
It's the GOSH Children's Charity that is bucketed, not the hospital itself. I would imagine the Charity is going to suffer a significant drop in income (usually greater than all the other UK children's hospitals put together), as it is.
 
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Only just now finding out any real detail about this. Sounds like the child should be mercifully allowed to die and the Pope and Trump are showboating in a rather insensitive and stupid way.


It's not about the Pope and Trump. It's about the arrogancy of government in taking away the rights of the parents to seek medical care for their own beloved child.

Absent clear and unambiguous snake oil salesman pitches, the government has no business stopping them from trying something, no matter how unlikely.

The only vile, grotesque, delusional behavior here are those fancying themselves so powerful they deign to forbid a loving parent from trying this.

I hope they trip and smash their faces on the sidewalk. Hard.
 
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Absent clear and unambiguous snake oil salesman pitches...
You mean like arrogant doctors pretending that they have effective treatments without fully reviewing the case? Who then offer entirely false hope to parents who are already having trouble facing reality? Parents who have already been indulged beyond any of the attending physicians' expectations of recovery or even improvement?

I wonder* if you'd be so indulgent if it was your taxes being spent on an entirely hopeless situation.

*I don't really wonder.
 
I don't live in the UK so much less exposed to this story. But from memory, what I'd read was:

1. There was a US hospital with real physicians with an experimental treatment that might have a 10% chance of significant improvement in his condition, that was willing to try it for free, with no cost to the NHS, that even if it didn't work (admittedly low chance) might provide useful information re the condition generally.

2. Hospital and child advocate - who is a leader of an assisted suicide advocacy group - said no, let him die.

3. Oh, and he has to die in hospital, not at home.

4. Oh, and that treatment that might work with a low chance of success? Well, too late, but we won't actually tell you the parents ahead of time, we'll have our lawyer spring it on you in court with the MRI results.

From my perspective, the child advocate had a clear conflict of interest or apparent conflict. A 10% chance costing $0 to the NHS and not taking much time seems reasonable to me. And #3 and #4 just seem cruel to the parents.

I mean, the UK can't even get its act together to stop thousands of girls each year from being mutilated, but they'll pull out all the stops to make sure this baby doesn't get an experimental (but legitimate medical) treatment. :confused:
 
I don't live in the UK so much less exposed to this story. But from memory, what I'd read was:

1. There was a US hospital with real physicians with an experimental treatment that might have a 10% chance of significant improvement in his condition, that was willing to try it for free, with no cost to the NHS, that even if it didn't work (admittedly low chance) might provide useful information re the condition generally.

2. Hospital and child advocate - who is a leader of an assisted suicide advocacy group - said no, let him die.

3. Oh, and he has to die in hospital, not at home.

4. Oh, and that treatment that might work with a low chance of success? Well, too late, but we won't actually tell you the parents ahead of time, we'll have our lawyer spring it on you in court with the MRI results.

From my perspective, the child advocate had a clear conflict of interest or apparent conflict. A 10% chance costing $0 to the NHS and not taking much time seems reasonable to me. And #3 and #4 just seem cruel to the parents.

I mean, the UK can't even get its act together to stop thousands of girls each year from being mutilated, but they'll pull out all the stops to make sure this baby doesn't get an experimental (but legitimate medical) treatment. :confused:
That's a compelling narrative except that there was zero evidence for any supposed "10% chance" of improvement, let alone evidence of the ability to determine how much improvement there might be. The proposed treatment had never even once been attempted for the child's specific [incurable] condition and the doctor proposing the treatment hadn't even properly reviewed the case, let alone examined the child.

It was the very definition of false hope.
 
It's not about the Pope and Trump. It's about the arrogancy of government in taking away the rights of the parents to seek medical care for their own beloved child.

Absent clear and unambiguous snake oil salesman pitches, the government has no business stopping them from trying something, no matter how unlikely.

The only vile, grotesque, delusional behavior here are those fancying themselves so powerful they deign to forbid a loving parent from trying this.

I hope they trip and smash their faces on the sidewalk. Hard.

"The government" had nothing to do with it. The doctors who were treating him were if the opinion that prolonging his life was only prolonging his suffering, and multiple courts - not "government" - agreed with them.
 
It's not about the Pope and Trump. It's about the arrogancy of government in taking away the rights of the parents to seek medical care for their own beloved child.

Absent clear and unambiguous snake oil salesman pitches, the government has no business stopping them from trying something, no matter how unlikely.

The only vile, grotesque, delusional behavior here are those fancying themselves so powerful they deign to forbid a loving parent from trying this.

I hope they trip and smash their faces on the sidewalk. Hard.
Kids have their own rights that do not depend on parents to let them have those rights. You may be happy with others being able to remove your basic human rights we in the UK aren't just because you are a kid.
 
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I don't live in the UK so much less exposed to this story. But from memory, what I'd read was:

1. There was a US hospital with real physicians with an experimental treatment that might have a 10% chance of significant improvement in his condition, that was willing to try it for free, with no cost to the NHS, that even if it didn't work (admittedly low chance) might provide useful information re the condition generally.

2. Hospital and child advocate - who is a leader of an assisted suicide advocacy group - said no, let him die.

3. Oh, and he has to die in hospital, not at home.

4. Oh, and that treatment that might work with a low chance of success? Well, too late, but we won't actually tell you the parents ahead of time, we'll have our lawyer spring it on you in court with the MRI results.

From my perspective, the child advocate had a clear conflict of interest or apparent conflict. A 10% chance costing $0 to the NHS and not taking much time seems reasonable to me. And #3 and #4 just seem cruel to the parents.

I mean, the UK can't even get its act together to stop thousands of girls each year from being mutilated, but they'll pull out all the stops to make sure this baby doesn't get an experimental (but legitimate medical) treatment. :confused:
Nice story, I sounds like it would be a good Hallmark made for TV movie. Now what about getting back to the topic of this thread?
 
I don't live in the UK so much less exposed to this story. But from memory, what I'd read was:

1. There was a US hospital with real physicians with an experimental treatment that might have a 10% chance of significant improvement in his condition, that was willing to try it for free, with no cost to the NHS, that even if it didn't work (admittedly low chance) might provide useful information re the condition generally.
The credibility of the one on question is now in doubt.

2. Hospital and child advocate - who is a leader of an assisted suicide advocacy group - said no, let him die.
Not something I have ever heard mentioned in the masses of reporting on this case. Proof, please.

3. Oh, and he has to die in hospital, not at home.
Because all the life support equipment and the medical staff are in the hospital.

4. Oh, and that treatment that might work with a low chance of success? Well, too late, but we won't actually tell you the parents ahead of time, we'll have our lawyer spring it on you in court with the MRI results.
It's now clear that the point-of-no-return was late last year, before the legal process had really - if actually - begun.

From my perspective, the child advocate had a clear conflict of interest or apparent conflict. A 10% chance costing $0 to the NHS and not taking much time seems reasonable to me. And #3 and #4 just seem cruel to the parents.
Not proven, but the US doctor has admitted a "financial interest" in the treatment components, which clearly is a conflict of interest. The treatment was being offered in the United States, and the doctors actually treating him did not think he could be safely moved.

I mean, the UK can't even get its act together to stop thousands of girls each year from being mutilated, but they'll pull out all the stops to make sure this baby doesn't get an experimental (but legitimate medical) treatment. :confused:
That's a pretty disgusting connection to make. It's also inherently contradictory, because you are railing against what you see as one instance of the "state" interfering in "parental choice," whist condemning the "state" for not being able to effectively intervene in another sort of "parental choice."
 
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Well thanks epeeist to offer us the perception most uninformed people will have of the case. If you want some perspective I recommend reading GOSH's opinion on the matter. You may ignore whatever but at least admit you are wrong on possible treatment when the doc in the US pretending to have a therapy :
1) did not answer GOSH invitation late last year/earlier this one to come and examin the kid, until july
2) has a financial interest in the treatment offered
3) there was signs already in December that the brain was so much affected as to be already hopeless, but the docs having not examined the kid simply mouthed off without good knowledge of the case
 
How do you know that wasn't the case?

We know the "10% chance" in this instance was in fact "..clear and unambiguous snake oil salesman pitches..". Which is indeed why the case ended up in the courts: the parents bought into the snake oil salesman's pitch and therefore it was up to the medical team to protect the child from the snake oil.
 
Well thanks epeeist to offer us the perception most uninformed people will have of the case. If you want some perspective I recommend reading GOSH's opinion on the matter. You may ignore whatever but at least admit you are wrong on possible treatment when the doc in the US pretending to have a therapy :
1) did not answer GOSH invitation late last year/earlier this one to come and examin the kid, until july
2) has a financial interest in the treatment offered
3) there was signs already in December that the brain was so much affected as to be already hopeless, but the docs having not examined the kid simply mouthed off without good knowledge of the case

And 4) This 'therapy' is theoretical at best; it hasn't been tried or tested on any animals or on humans [ETA - with Charlie's condition]

It is true that the child's Guardian is also on the board of Trustees for an organisation called Compassion In Dying, which promotes the right of adults to have some say in their manner of dying by making advanced directives such as DNR. It is not an assisted suicide advocacy group.

The reason that GOSH could not facilitate the child being taken home to die was because his life support system would not fit in their house, and even if that could have been overcome he would have had to be disconnected temporarily from the support system in order to be moved which would have caused him distress.
 
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I don't live in the UK so much less exposed to this story. But from memory, what I'd read was:

1. There was a US hospital with real physicians with an experimental treatment that might have a 10% chance of significant improvement in his condition, that was willing to try it for free, with no cost to the NHS, that even if it didn't work (admittedly low chance) might provide useful information re the condition generally.

Not once has anything been mentioned about cost, all his care from a world leading children's hospital, one that has made many breakthroughs over the decades was provided free to the parents. It should be noted that the GOSH is a hospital that many other world leading treatment centres reach out to for support and consultation. It regularly consultants and works with leading edge researchers and treatments worldwide as well as being a leading research and treatment hospital in its own right.

The offers and case consultation from the USA included treatments the GOSH team had already disregard, some of them were treatments that that GOSH had pioneered. The "10%" that the parents latched onto was from one particular USA professor for a treatment that had never even been tried in animals and his offer was not based on clinical knowledge of the child's condition. I've bolded that as I think it is absolutely key. THe "offer" for this treatment was made with no clinical knowledge. The GOSH offered for this professor to visit, examine etc. the child - he never took them up on this offer despite having over 7 months to do so.

2. Hospital and child advocate - who is a leader of an assisted suicide advocacy group - said no, let him die.

The medical team assessed all available clinical knowledge, consulted worldwide and there was no other viable treatments remaining. In clinical assessments of the child they believed he was still reactive to pain stimulus. They therefore decided that beyond palliative care there was nothing else that could be done for the child.

The parents and the hospital's case for their decision was weighed by several courts - not by any advocate, the courts were presented with all the medical details, all the ruled in favour of the hospital. There was no actual medical case based on clinical knowledge provided by the parents.
3. Oh, and he has to die in hospital, not at home.

Again not the case. At this point the child needed extensive medical life support, simply taking him from GOSH would have killed him. There was no other hospital that was willing to take him from GOSH, GOSH helped arrange a transfer to a hospice. As with most end stage care, the life support systems would have been removed after the transfer, the parents did not want this and wanted him kept alive on life support for undefined reasons for an undefined time. They again went to court to try and get that, thankfully it seems to have got through to them at that point that all they were doing was prolonging his suffering for them to have what they wanted.

4. Oh, and that treatment that might work with a low chance of success? Well, too late, but we won't actually tell you the parents ahead of time, we'll have our lawyer spring it on you in court with the MRI results.

Again no. Nothing like that happened.

The professor offering the potential treatment never did any kind of clinical assessment even though he could have done so. The parents had even by this point raised more than enough money to have paid for him to come over to the UK and even pay him a consultation fee. For some reason he for around 7 months never requested the child's medical records or to be allowed to visit and conduct his own clinical assessment of the child. Any "evidence" he had was not related to either his treatment being used to treat any child with Gard's disease (because it had never been tried) and was not based on his clinical knowledge of the case. In other words he did not provide any medical evidence relevant to the child's case.

The parents at all times had access to every single piece of clinical data, the medical team went through all the scans with the parents prior to any court case.
From my perspective, the child advocate had a clear conflict of interest or apparent conflict.
Can you please name this "child advocate" and explain how they influenced the court's decision.
A 10% chance costing $0 to the NHS and not taking much time seems reasonable to me. And #3 and #4 just seem cruel to the parents.
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There was never any medically determined "10% chance", and have no idea why the cost issue is being raised - no cost considerations played any part in the court decisions.
I mean, the UK can't even get its act together to stop thousands of girls each year from being mutilated, but they'll pull out all the stops to make sure this baby doesn't get an experimental (but legitimate medical) treatment. :confused:

In the UK children have rights, I expect my courts to protect those rights. A parent is meant to always do what is in the best interests of a child, sadly sometimes emotions get in the way of parent's making the correct decision and sadly we end up having to go to a court to ensure the best decision for the child is made.
 
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