Charles Norrie's Lockerbie theory

[CharlesNorrie]

Dear Rolfe,

It would not matter to me if I am banned or suspended. There are places that will listen, because they have to. And I am being censored, provably, by the CIA on Wikipedia.

I have not seen these so called yellow cards. For why? (Keith Joseph) For telling the truth?

 

[CharlesNorrie]

I have read it. It doesn't contain insults directed at the people you're speaking to. I recommend avoiding these in the forum also.

Rolfe.

__________

But Rolfe I don't insult people, unless they are quite silly. And I had my theory checked by a libel lawyer, who said Mr Bush would not dignify my theory by suing me!

 

[Rolfe]

Why should the PFLP GC (Arabs and Sunni) do Iran's dirty work (Persians and Shia), both a racial and religious difference, even for $11M.

Well, $11 million sounds like quite a decent motivation to me. Imagine the mayhem you could continue to create with that sort of funding!

And of course there is the matter of the money actually having been paid to the PFLP-GC by the Iranians a few days after Lockerbie.

No one has produced anything but vapourware that the PFLP GC did it, which incidentally conflicts with official theory, and I think an early CIA framing, defeated by the onset of the 1st |Gulf War.

Well, there's a helluva lot more evidence suggesting that the PFLP-GC did it than that Megrahi did it. Though I agree that doesn't necessarily mean much.

Why would the CIA be planting evidence specifically pointing to Libya in the early weeks/months of the investigation, long before the Gulf War was even a small cloud on the horizon?

Rolfe.

 

[CharlesNorrie]

Once the CIA had used McKee's suitcase transponder to locate it, it must have been easy to determine which baggage container was AVE4041. [....] In the remains of AVE4041 PA, the CIA placed a pre-blown suitcase, the remains of a Toshiba cassette recorder and various miscellaneous items. They hoped that, when the Lockerbie investigation team found the suitcase, they would follow the concocted evidence to a suitable CIA selected target, which would become Libya.

People who don't know how I work, may be unaware that i refine my theories. Today I would rewrite the phrase "in the remains of" as "in the vicinity of the remains of"

 

[Rolfe]

But Rolfe I don't insult people, unless they are quite silly.

On this forum, you don't insult other members, full stop. No matter what you think of their arguments. Or at least, you don't do it for long.

And I had my theory checked by a libel lawyer, who said Mr Bush would not dignify my theory by suing me!

Did he really use those words? That's priceless!

Rolfe.

 

[Dog Town]

You are a very silly and ignorant American nationalist.

You realize what happens when you use these words? Right?
No?
Let me show you.



A trifecta!

 

[CharlesNorrie]

Rolfe;

Well, $11 million sounds like quite a decent motivation to me. Imagine the mayhem you could continue to create with that sort of funding!

If that is so, why have we not seen the results of this funding, in terms of bombs, politics or palaces?

 

[CharlesNorrie]

Don't use silly animated figures. For me plain writing only works, not animated icons.

 

[CharlesNorrie]

Refrence to Mr Dogtown:

I really don't know what you are saying

You are a very silly and ignorant American nationalist.
You realize what happens when you use these words? Right?
No?
Let me show you.



A trifecta!

 

[Rolfe]

Once the CIA had used McKee's suitcase transponder to locate it, it must have been easy to determine which baggage container was AVE4041. [....] In the remains of AVE4041 PA, the CIA placed a pre-blown suitcase, the remains of a Toshiba cassette recorder and various miscellaneous items. They hoped that, when the Lockerbie investigation team found the suitcase, they would follow the concocted evidence to a suitable CIA selected target, which would become Libya.

People who don't know how I work, may be unaware that i refine my theories. Today I would rewrite the phrase "in the remains of" as "in the vicinity of the remains of"

But you published that document only a few days ago.

Charles, your revised wording doesn't work either. Have you ascertained where each of the items you refer to were actually found? Remember, every item was recorded by location. That's how we know precisely where the shirt collar with the timer fragment was (allegedly) found.

There was no "pre-blown" suitcase, or (identifiable) remains of a radio-cassette recorder spacially associated with any/either of the pieces of the baggage container. Have you seen the presentation of the suitcase fragments, which were picked up from all over the place?

ETA: Here's the image I'm talking about. That's the totality of what was collected, but from all over the place.

Rolfe.

 

[CharlesNorrie]

If you have tried to understand my argument, you will understand that I have rejected virtually all of the evidence on the ground at Lockerbie.

Except as I have interpreted it.

So we have to start again.

From scratch.

 

[Sabretooth]

== Why shouldn't I believe what the Iranians say. Do you think they necessarily lie? Yours is the country with Fox News. Not mine.

All you show here is a personal bias with no factual argument. So you trust Iranian Media over Fox News? So what?

You think GHW Bush was elected primarily because of a push from Iran to get him in office to help hatch a plot.

== No, you haven't read my theory. But by grandstanding after the downing of IR-655 HW Bush was doing no disservice to his campaign. See his poll ratings.

A couple excerpts from your blog:

I believe that George H.W. Bush secured his election as the 41st president of the United States by giving the Iranians their measured revenge in blood for the Vincennes attack.

George H.W. Bush had been the de facto Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (DCI of the CIA) under President Gerald Ford in 1976. So it would have been easy for George Bush to secure assistance from senior CIA officials by secretly cutting a deal with the Iranians.

I interpret this statement as GHWB cutting a deal with Iran to gain the Presidency. If that’s not what you meant, then I suggest you rewrite your theory.

-You think the U.S. felt bad about IR-655 (please get your stuff right) and agreed to help arrange an aircraft bombing so Iran could feel better about themselves and not look like a bunch of p****’s.

== I never said that all all. In public the US was quite prepared to allow Bush to brag and campaign. In private the US (Richard Lawless, the CIA and the like) knew they had to contain and deal with Iranian anger. (What governments do in private is not necessarily what they do in public).

I’m sorry…I can see where someone might mistake IA655 and IR655 and totally get the wrong idea…it’s quite the screw up…[/sarcasm]

You didn’t really deny what I stated. To reword: Iran wanted revenge and the U.S. allowed them to do so.

== This was a private deal between the Iranian government (democratically elected, though you wouldn't like me to say that (unlike GWB I)).my take on the negotiations). (see Iran wanted revenge not publicity (a typical US failing to be able to distinguish between the two). They would not want publicity because American crude nationalist right might have decided to wage war on them.

Let’s see…Iran wanted revenge…but not “public” revenge…

This theory is getting thinner by the second…

== It took me about 15 years before I was ready to blame the CIA.

You are a very silly and ignorant American nationalist.

15 whole years, huh? Now it just takes a second for you to throw blame at them?

Ignorant? I suppose you’re right in a way. I’m ignorant because I expect CTer’s to occasionally come up with something valid and actually support their wild accusations with facts and evidence. Still waiting on that first one. And yet, I still hold out hope.

 

[CharlesNorrie]

There was no "pre-blown" suitcase, or (identifiable) remains of a radio-cassette recorder spacially associated with any/either of the pieces of the baggage container. Have you seen the presentation of the suitcase fragments, which were picked up from all over the place?

Can you prove that Rolfe, or is it an argument from common and lazy assertion?

 

[CharlesNorrie]

All you show here is a personal bias with no factual argument. So you trust Iranian Media over Fox News? So what?

I don't like Iranian News, but I hate Fox media. And when reporting Iranian people's and government views of Iranian issues, I certainly believe Iran over Fox. Don't you?

 

[CharlesNorrie]

I interpret this statement as GHWB cutting a deal with Iran to gain the Presidency. If that’s not what you meant, then I suggest you rewrite your theory.

Pretty well what I meant? What's wrong with it?

 

[CharlesNorrie]

You didn’t really deny what I stated. To reword: Iran wanted revenge and the U.S. allowed them to do so.

The US co-operated with them in doing it, because of the US fear of what Iran might do, which would have destroyed HW Bush's presidential chances.

 

[Rolfe]

There was no "pre-blown" suitcase, or (identifiable) remains of a radio-cassette recorder spacially associated with any/either of the pieces of the baggage container. Have you seen the presentation of the suitcase fragments, which were picked up from all over the place?

Can you prove that Rolfe, or is it an argument from common and lazy assertion?

Look at this image, which is a montage of all the suitcase that was collected, scraped together from all over the place.

There was even less of the radio-cassette recorder. Tiny fragments of plastic, that chip of circuit board on the iconic fingertip photo that Claiden found, a couple of bits of speaker mesh, a few even smaller pieces. These were mostly prised out of fabric they had been blasted into. There wasn't even enough to get a definite identification of the model, which is why the Horton fragment was so important . And by the way, there was no Arabic writing on that fragment, I can't believe you don't know this.

ETA: See Caustic Logic's article about this. He has photos.

Rolfe.

 

[CharlesNorrie]

Let’s see…Iran wanted revenge…but not “public” revenge…"

This theory is getting thinner by the second…

It isn't. Read Bob Baer on how the Iranians deal with the world. I expect I've read it, and you haven't.

The world is not exactly as you wish to think it is.

What would have happened if Iran had bragged about Pan Am 103 being revenge. Probably a war in the Gulf. So they don't and deliver up the Lebanese hostages after they're off the hook, per the Glion agreement, and after Magrahi and Fhimah are charged

I really have thought out my position, you know, and it's impregnable.

 

[CharlesNorrie]

Look at this image, which is a montage of all the suitcase that was collected, scraped together from all over the place.

There was even less of the radio-cassette recorder. Tiny fragments of plastic, that chip of circuit board on the iconic fingertip photo that Claiden found, a couple of bits of speaker mesh, a few even smaller pieces. These were mostly prised out of fabric they had been blasted into. There wasn't even enough to get a definite identification of the model, which is why the Horton fragment was so important . And by the way, there was no Arabic writing on that fragment, I can't believe you don't know this.

Now, unless you are a devotee of official theory, you know there is something wrong with the chip evidence. If so, why not with the cassette evidence, discarded by AAIB and given to RARDE, then why not with the clothing, often in doubt, or the suitcase? Can you prove the suitcase evidence is right in other words. It could have just as easily been dumped.

 

[CharlesNorrie]

15 whole years, huh? Now it just takes a second for you to throw blame at them?

No, the blame is at the US and Iran.

It doesn't take a second and Darwin took over 20 years to come up wuth his theory, but could state it in a single sentence.