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Chaos Magic

Non sequitur much?. The subject is this chaos magic malarky. Do you have anything understandable to say about it?

I know, the discussion on chaos magic appears to have more or less run its course. I wouldn't attempt to defend such paranormal activity, however the event by which the universe came into existence might be a paranormal event.
 
Oh I see, so what is gibberish from your perspective cannot be rational and any frames of reference are deemed irrelevant.
No, my perspective is irrelevant. That's what the word gibberish means.

Let me simplify it for you.

I have assumed the principles/laws of nature had an origin.
Okay.

That origin I am suggesting was the 'mind of God'.
Why?

Examples of these principles/laws, are evolution and gravity.
Evolution isn't a law; it's more of an emergent process.

Gravity, yes, but so what?

Now can you understand that?
No.

Now are you going to address my point (rather than knit picking).

The paranormal event of the big bang.
The term you're looking for is singularityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_singularity.

Oh and to help you along I will define God too;

'An infinite omnipotent source'.
Why do you think any such thing exists, much less possesses a mind?
 
A tiny, very hot ball of energy expanded to become the universe we see. We don't know what came before that, but there are some interesting hypotheses - some of which may be testable.

You can imagine there was a loud 'pop' if you like - after all, it is called a big bang, and the CBR is called its 'echo'.


Ah - I had a picture of the T-shirt image of figures following each other in evolutionary order, with each carrying a white stick.

As far as we know, there is no direction or goal for the universe, nor any reason to suppose there might be. That doesn't stop us having personal directions and goals.

Not this universe then, which is only about 4.6% normal matter.


Artificial or sentimentalized poetic writing.

Yes, the evidence supports your summary of what happened after the big bang.
What I find curious is the big bang itself, which may have been a paranormal event.
Also how the laws of nature, the atoms, elements originated during the big bang and what such an explanation might say about the nature of the big bang.

Perhaps the abnormal matter(mass) is a dust aswell.

Yes what I say may be 'poetic', every word has been carefully chosen and each phrase often has more than one meaning.
I realise this is quite different from the more scientific way in which thoughts are conveyed in this forum and may present a language barrier.
 
No, I am suggesting God created the universe to stimulate the discussion.

If you really want to simulate the discussion, then why haven't you answered my question? Why do you believe God created the universe?

I am interested in any explanations the 'materialists' may have for the origin of the universe.

What research into this question have you done yourself?

What I find curious is the big bang itself, which may have been a paranormal event.

Why do you think this?

Also how the laws of nature, the atoms, elements originated during the big bang and what such an explanation might say about the nature of the big bang.

There's lots of scientific research in to this. Why not try reading some?
 
This thread is about "Chaos Magic". If you wish to discuss a different subject, do so in a new thread.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles
 
Oh I see, so what is gibberish from your perspective cannot be rational and any frames of reference are deemed irrelevant.

Let me simplify it for you.

I have assumed the principles/laws of nature had an origin.

That origin I am suggesting was the 'mind of God'.

Examples of these principles/laws, are evolution and gravity.

Now can you understand that?


Now are you going to address my point (rather than knit picking).

The paranormal event of the big bang.


Oh and to help you along I will define God too;

'An infinite omnipotent source'.

Let us take your phrase ''god is an evolved atom'' All good English words but you strung them together to form gibberish. Krishna is a devolved quark. Zeus is a reconstructed muon. See how easy it is?. An infinite omnipotent source is gibberish too. You really must learn to use phrases that have common currency,your post have no meaning.
 
This thread is about "Chaos Magic". If you wish to discuss a different subject, do so in a new thread.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

Let us get back on topic. Does anyone have anything to say about chaos magic and sigils? Limbo,if you are there please feel free to put a spell on me. Do your worst.
 
This thread is about "Chaos Magic". If you wish to discuss a different subject, do so in a new thread.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

Ok, I will leave this subject for a more suitable occasion.
 
I don't think its worth me trying to explain the atom hypothesis to you, it only makes sense to folk who accept the existence of 'God'.

It would not make sense to anyone. You really must learn to use words in their accepted meaning and in the proper context.
 
So I guess if things start making sense, you know you're off topic. Which means we're definitely in safe territory!
 
If my memory is presumed to be so faulty and inadmissible that I'm not a reliable witness to my own damn experiences why the repeated demands that I recall more details?

Who has said that? Certainly not me. I don't particularly care how many details you think you can remember. It doesn't make your memory any more reliable. You can't verify the details any more than you can verify the rest.

Absolutely incredible... In the same breath you deny the very presumption I spoke of while explicitly affirming it. Its fascinating how your personal integrity and logical self-consistency go out the airlock when a cherished belief of yours is on the line. Yea, I know, I know..."What 'cherished beliefs'?" :rolleyes:

Care to explain what it is that you're objecting to? Your highlight doesn't appear to support your statement.

Of course it wouldn't appear so to you; apparently you've a vested interest in not recognizing it. Its ironic how you presume to lecture me about my ability to recall memories of my own experiences yet you're willfully blind to whats right in front of your face.

[ETA: Answer this 'yes' or 'no': Do you consider me a reliable witness to my own experiences?]

ETA: In response to your edit, you are presenting a false dichotomy. I consider you a reliable witness if there is evidence backing up your claim. For example, if you claimed that you had coffee this morning, I would have no issue, because I know that coffee exists and that people drink it in the morning very commonly. However, if you claimed that you had been abducted by aliens, no, I would not believe you, because there is no evidence that it occurred.

Thats a pretty long "no".

Why would I need to straw-man?

I didn't say you needed to. Just that you are. No one has said that you "must" be wrong. That is a blatant straw man. Attempting to dodge the accusation does not change this.

If you don't believe I'm wrong then what are you arguing against?

In order to discount the validity of my recollections my memory would have to be so unreliable as to render me completely dysfunctional.

No, it wouldn't. There are thousands of people like you all over the world who have faulty memories and who function perfectly normally. In fact, there are roughly seven billion people with faulty memories out there, myself included.

No kidding? I reckon you must fill in the gaps of your own shoddy memory with bald presumptions -- or is that something you only reserve for people with recollections you find objectionable?

That your memory is faulty does not make you dysfunctional. It makes you normal. The disconnect is when you refuse to admit that your memory is likely imperfect,

Its one thing to point out that memory is fallible. Its quite another to imply that your presumptions concerning another's experiences trumps their firsthand recollection of said experiences.

and that there are many mundane explanations for what you experienced which cannot be ruled out, and maintain that your memory is evidence of psi.

Who said anything about ruling out "mundane" explanations? I've repeatedly stated that even assuming the explanations put forward they are still insufficient in themselves to account for every feature of the events in question -- that includes even the "paranormal" interpretations you dread so much. Of course, your other fall-back is to try and convince me that you're a better judge of my recollections than I am.

The fact of the matter is that I directly know what I experience and how clear my memories of those experiences are, your presumptions notwithstanding.

Well, no. The fact of the matter is you don't. Your memory is demonstrably imperfect. It's part of being human. Because the only thing you can compare your memory to is itself, you cannot know - without some form of outside evidence - whether or not your memory is unaltered.

There's no mental flag that says "WARNING: ALTERED MEMORIES AHEAD". You can only compare it to itself, which is why it looks unaltered.

This is not something which is up for dispute. It is irrefutable fact. No human has an absolutely perfect memory. The brain is not wired that way.

This does not mean that every single one of your memories is flawed (well, actually, they are, but not necessarily badly - fine detailing may get altered, but the substance will likely remain unchanged). But it does mean that your memory can be and has been altered. Memories of emotionally-charged events - like your experience - are even more likely to be altered.

Actually, emotionally charged experiences are much more likely to be remembered vividly and clearly. I suppose this misrepresentation on your part is a product of your admitted ignorance of neuroscience. But don't let that stop you. Please, carry on your lecture :)

Again, this cannot be disputed. It happens. We know it happens.

So why do you think your memory is correct?

Because I've direct access to my own memories so I'm in a much better position to discern how much I remember, and how clearly. Problem is that what I recall appears incongruent with [and is therefore threatening to] a worldview you're strongly vested in. Due to this bias, you not only presume that my recollection of the events in question is incorrect, but also attempt to convince me to conform to said presumptions.

That makes for very convenient wiggle-room to sneak in special pleading.

No.

Your responses so far show differently ;)

Whenever faced with reports of events suggestive of "the paranormal" memory is presumed so unreliable that even the firsthand observer hardly knows their ass from up. But when dealing with more "mundane" circumstances memory is considered reliable enough to give the benefit of the doubt. Very convenient.

Yes. We've been over this before.

Entirely mundane claims have their evidence readily available. "I drove here" is trivially easy to prove, as it's too far to walk in such a time, the speaker isn't covered in mud and his car is in the driveway. However, if he said "I drove here" when there is no car in the driveway, he's covered in mud, he's carrying a dirty sleeping bag, and he's bleeding gently onto the carpet, you wouldn't believe him, no matter how certain he was.

This is why courts do not convict people based solely on witness testimony. There must be evidence to back up the accusation, because the accusation is not evidence in and of itself.

Right. And the only "evidence" you have that my memories are incorrect is that they appear to contradict a world-view you've invested much faith in. Fact of the matter is, you've no hard evidence either way yet you're trying your damnedest to convince me that you know better what I accurately recall than I do. I find your apparent inability see the irrationality of your behavior [no matter how many times it's been made explicit to you] both disturbing and intriguing.

The post you decided to reply to was addressed to PixyMisa and was making a broader epistemological point on the fundamental limitations of knowledge and understanding. The point is that there really is no such thing as "sufficient" understanding of the world and presumptions of such are erroneous folly. The fact that you chose to dispute this demonstrates that you actually do hold to such a position and the argument does, in fact, personally apply to you. Quit falling back on the whole "straw-manning" defense; its not only silly and dishonest, its also getting pretty old.

I'll stop accusing you of making straw men when you stop doing it. Read my response again. You are mischaracterizing those who have responded to you. You are strawmanning.

Your position is already built on straw and almost beyond parody. The fact that you can't even address the point being made in the segment you're responding to clearly demonstrates such.

All I aim to show is that you've a very powerful [and unrecognized] cognitive bias toward presuming that all such studies and reports are fundamentally unreliable.

Which you can't really do by repeating "you're biased skeptic jerks!" over and over. Repetition does not equal truth. If you want to show that we dismiss studies out of hand, present a study and watch us do so. Repeating "you dismiss any studies which contradict you!" doesn't work when you haven't given us any studies to dismiss.

Why waste energy presenting accounts I've no first hand experience of? You're dismissing my own reports out of hand, despite your lack of positive or negative evidence concerning their veracity. That is sufficient in itself to demonstrate your bias. [This is your cue to deny that you're dismissing my accounts out of hand ;) ]

<snip straw men and repetition>

Let me ask you this: Do you feel that you subject counter claims and negative evidence to the same level of scrutiny that you do positive?

Yes. If I didn't, I wouldn't saying it to you.

Then my assessment was right; you're blind to your own bias.

You spoke with such authority about the great strides they've been making in understanding consciousness. I assumed that you'd have some documented evidence of such understanding. Apparently you don't. Shame, that :(

Did you even bother to read my response?

In addition, "great strides" does not mean "we understand every detail".

"Great strides" yet you've no answers to the very rudimentary questions I posed to you. Someone is very deep in denial.

<snip repetition>

Ergo, my earlier statement that emphatic claims that consciousness must, in principle, be a phenomena confined to brains is an argument from ignorance still stands.

No, it doesn't, because no one has said that consciousness must be confined to brains. Stop with the straw men.

PixyMisa has explicitly stated that it is a physical impossibly for the mind/consciousness to exist independent of a brain, and you interjected to support him in his claims. Stop with the denial.

It isn't that consciousness must be the product of a brain, but that it is in the case of humans. I don't know of anyone here - except for perhaps yourself, Malerin, and annnnoid - who would say that it is impossible for a machine to be conscious. I do not argue that consciousness arises only from brains, as it is simply a byproduct of certain interactions, and I see no reason that this could not be recreated in another type of system, such as computers.

I've never stated that it is impossible to create conscious machines. My position is, and always has been, that we do not currently have a scientific understanding sufficient to design such machines.

So stop strawmanning.

Indeed you should :-/

Face it, Argent; your emperor has no clothes.

Face it, Aku. You can't answer to what's actually being said to you, so you have to create these imaginary foes to duel against.

This is meant to be ironic, right...?

We were discussing the current paucity of scientific understanding regarding subjective experience and you submitted that our "knowledge" of how eyes perceive is evidence of such understanding.

No. We were discussing whether or not physics could explain subjective interpretation. You argued that there was nothing in physics which could explain the fact that we perceived certain wavelengths of light as "blue". "Blue" is simply the name we give to certain wavelengths of light as interpreted by our eyes. Because of the differences between different wavelengths of light, our eyes send different signals to the brain, thus giving us different colors.

You jumped on "our eyes perceive" because you were being needlessly pedantic. Physics very much does explain colors.

Then use this alleged knowledge to answer my questions. In this age of the internet it shouldn't be that difficult for you to find a source sufficient to the task.

Its not my fault if you choose take personal offence to posts I've not addressed to you.

The lengths to which you'll go to contort and evade an obvious point is breathtaking, to say the least. There is no way that you're honestly this obtuse.

You might try to be a little less transparent with your lies.

You might try to be a little less transparent with your lies. :rolleyes:

[ETA: Wait, so are you implying that you HAVEN'T been interjecting and taking personal offence to posts I've not addressed to you? In any case, if you're offended by the above statement its genuinely unfortunate but, fact is, your behavior has really been that irrational. I suggest you backtrack and carefully reconsider the discussion and your actions so far.]
 
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Of course it wouldn't appear so to you; apparently you've a vested interest in not recognizing it. Its ironic how you presume to lecture me about my ability to recall memories of my own experiences yet you're willfully blind to whats right in front of your face.

Repeating this doesn't help you. I asked you to show how your highlight proved what you were saying. Can you or can't you?

Thats a pretty long "no".

If "no" is all that you got out of that, you may want to work on your comprehension skills.

If you don't believe I'm wrong then what are you arguing against?

There is a difference between believing that it is impossible for you to be right and believing that you are wrong.

No kidding? I reckon you must fill in the gaps of your own shoddy memory with bald presumptions -- or is that something you only reserve for people with recollections you find objectionable?

Pure Argent said:
I consider you a reliable witness if there is evidence backing up your claim. For example, if you claimed that you had coffee this morning, I would have no issue, because I know that coffee exists and that people drink it in the morning very commonly. However, if you claimed that you had been abducted by aliens, no, I would not believe you, because there is no evidence that it occurred.

This applies to my own memories as well.

Its one thing to point out that memory is fallible. Its quite another to imply that your presumptions concerning another's experiences trumps their firsthand recollection of said experiences.

Unless that presumption - namely, that memory is fallible - not only can be but has been proven. You have yet to offer a shred of evidence against it. All you are doing is saying "I know that my memory is correct". That does not help your case.

Who said anything about ruling out "mundane" explanations?

You. As you followed this very sentence with:

I've repeatedly stated that even assuming the explanations put forward they are still insufficient in themselves to account for every feature of the events in question -- that includes even the "paranormal" interpretations you dread so much.

My highlight.

Presumably you include mundane explanations in your list of explanations which don't account for every feature of your experience. If you didn't, you wouldn't be harping on about how there is no explanation for what you experienced.

Beyond that, you have failed to give us any reason whatsoever to think that mundane explanations cannot account for your experience. All you've done is say that they can't. That doesn't help you.

Of course, your other fall-back is to try and convince me that you're a better judge of my recollections than I am.

Except that it isn't, because I have never done that.

Stop strawmanning.

Actually, emotionally charged experiences are much more likely to be remembered vividly and clearly.

You need to read more carefully. Certain details are likely to be remembered more clearly. Other details are likely to be missed.

As far as your own experience goes, I find it likely that you remembered that you heard something which seemed strange at the time and which had no immediately identifiable source. The fact that you couldn't find a source, and that the information imparted seemed strange, imprinted on your memory, and remained. The actual content of the message didn't - at least, not as strongly. It was later altered.

Because I've direct access to my own memories so I'm in a much better position to discern how much I remember, and how clearly.

No, you aren't. Again, there's no magic flag that declares "THIS MEMORY HAS BEEN ALTERED". All you have is a memory with nothing to compare it to. You cannot tell if it has been altered.

Problem is that what I recall appears incongruent with [and is therefore threatening to] a worldview you're strongly vested in.

Again, no. I really see little point in continuing this conversation if you can't even understand that I am not strongly vested in my current worldview. I've explained this to you already.

Right. And the only "evidence" you have that my memories are incorrect is that they appear to contradict a world-view you've invested much faith in.

No. The evidence I have that your memories are incorrect is that memory is fallible, that you have no evidence that your memory is correct, and that the things which you are positing as an explanation are not known to be possible.

<snip>

Your position is already build on straw and almost beyond parody. The fact that you can't even address the point being made in the segment you're responding to clearly demonstrates such.

And what point do you claim I missed?

You're dismissing my own reports out of hand, despite your lack of positive or negative evidence concerning their veracity.

I have already given you the evidence that your memory is likely wrong. Memory is not perfect. Dismissing something with evidence in hand that it is incorrect is not "dismissing it out of hand".

"Great strides" yet you've no answers to the very rudimentary questions I posed to you. Someone is very deep in denial.

Try again. Rather than repeating nonsense that I've already responded to, try coming up with an answer to what I've said.

PixyMisa has explicitly stated that it is a physical impossibly for the mind/consciousness to exist independent of a brain, and you interject to support him in his claims. Stop with the denial.

Try responding to my reply in context next time. Quote-mining only makes you look foolish.

As it does when you quote-mine Pixy. If you've ever looked at any of the consciousness threads that he participates in, you'd know that, once again, Pixy's position and my own align perfectly.

You might try to be a little less transparent with your lies. :rolleyes:

So you don't think this is an insult? What world do you live in?
 
No, you aren't. Again, there's no magic flag that declares "THIS MEMORY HAS BEEN ALTERED". All you have is a memory with nothing to compare it to. You cannot tell if it has been altered.
It's worse than that. There's actually a negative correlation between how sure you are that a memory is accurate and how accurate it is. I'll see if I can dig out the cite and find out how strong that correlation is, but being sure you're right based on episodic memory alone should always be a big warning flag.
 
It's worse than that. There's actually a negative correlation between how sure you are that a memory is accurate and how accurate it is. I'll see if I can dig out the cite and find out how strong that correlation is, but being sure you're right based on episodic memory alone should always be a big warning flag.

Esp. when you keep 'remembering' more and more details.
 
Of course it wouldn't appear so to you; apparently you've a vested interest in not recognizing it. Its ironic how you presume to lecture me about my ability to recall memories of my own experiences yet you're willfully blind to whats right in front of your face.

Repeating this doesn't help you. I asked you to show how your highlight proved what you were saying. Can you or can't you?

....

All sarcasm and facetiousness aside, please tell me that this is some kind of sick joke -- you're genuinely starting to concern me, Argent. If that was a serious query either you've got some severe cognitive deficiency or we've reached the limits of your integrity. In either case, trying to have an honest, rational discussion with you on this issue is an exercise in futility.

You might try to be a little less transparent with your lies. :rolleyes:

So you don't think this is an insult? What world do you live in?

So the statement I parroted back to you was originally meant as an insult? If thats the case then I return it to you in the spirit in which it was given :-/

In any case, after reading the rest of your reply its become abundantly clear to me that we've far exceeded the limits of your ability to rationally carry on this conversation </sigh> I leave ya to it :sulk:
 
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