Chaos Magic

[AkuManiMani]

Zanders thought he was experiencing more than his fair share of weirdness too, it's a common feeling. He can probably explain to you how it works. If you think about it rationally, it doesn't make sense that you should be a weirdness magnet any more than anyone else - it's an egocentric view, similar to that which led to thinking the Earth was the centre of the universe. We're predisposed to these forms of thinking. Doesn't mean it's true.

Naawwww...? Really? And here I was beginning to think I literally AM a magnet for weirdness. I'm so glad I've a cool rational intellect like yours to set me strait in my strange superstitions, dlorde

 

[AkuManiMani]

Thing is, Aku, that you can filter initial reports and anecdotes against the database of current knowledge to check for plausible hypotheses for the likely cause. The simplest, most plausible hypothesis is generally taken to be the most likely cause. Examining your report, there are well-known precedents for every part of it - we know hearing voices is not unusual in the kind of circumstances you describe, and we know that the initial memory laid down is likely to be unreliable, given the situation, and that memories of experiental 'stories' are generally refined and exaggerated over time such that they diverge from the original experience. This kind of distortion happens to all of us, whether we realise it or not. See How Much Of Your Memory Is True.

The plausibility of this hypothesis - that your report is fully consistent with well evidenced unreliability of brain function, astronomically outweighs the plausibility of the hypothesis that your report is of mysterious supranormal or paranormal forces or spirits for which there is no good evidence. You may not like it, and the mundane explanation isn't so romantic, but that's just the way goes. That's the problem with anecdotes, they are simply unreliable.

I have stories about events that I could have sworn were accurate, that a friend or colleague is equally sure happened quite differently - in a couple, the difference is about which of us was the protagonist... At least one of us has to be seriously wrong.

Our memories evolved with the rest of us - they are only as good as they need to be for individual and group success, and that turns out to be a lot flakier than we thought until recently.

Translation: "If what you experience contradicts what I believe about reality then your experience is wrong, not my beliefs. Here are some of my own anecdotes and links to some very smart people who agree with me -- and you should too!"

 

[PixyMisa]

Translation: "If what you experience contradicts what I believe about reality then your experience is wrong, not my beliefs. Here are some of my own anecdotes and links to some very smart people who agree with me -- and you should to!"

I see you follow the Hungarian Phrasebook school of translation there.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Sorry, I've been busy and overlooked this post, Zanders.



As of now I've no firm beliefs regarding 'the spirit world'. However, I suspect that the term probably refers to whatever collective mental space native practitioners project into and/or to whatever exists beyond our space-time ruleset.



Don't know. Seems plausible at this point.



The ones I've interacted with exhibit as much intelligence as any human I've talked to. Not sure what you mean by 'different kind of intelligence' but I'd venture a guess that they aren't necessarily human.



No I don't. I can count on one hand the number of times per year I even drink alcohol. Though, I must admit that out of curiosity I took some DMT not long after my encounter. I'd requested some from a class mate earlier in the semester and she just happened to come thru with it on the week following the incident. She recommended that I take it orally and suggested that I only take about 20mg of it as she found that dosage more than enough to produce strong effects. I decided I would do a little experiment: I took twice the dosage she recommended (with some alkaline water) before going to sleep to see what effect it would have on my dreams. The results were pretty interesting...

Are you aware that DMT is not active orally without taking an MAO inhibitor and your stomach simply digests and passes the chemical without any psychoactive effect whatsoever? If your friend gave you a mixture of DMT with an MAOI and did not alert you of the health issues they pose, you could have been killed, quite painfully so( simply by eating cheese or some other aged food ). If she did and you just left that out, apologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAOI

As someone who has quite a bit of experience with DMT, I really do not think you could remain asleep if you actually took a psychoactive dose without being gassed.

Of course, with the whole black market thing, people can claim just about anything is DMT without having reliable communication with the person who extracted the analogue.

 

[PixyMisa]

Well, I for one was not aware of that. I have no plans to deliberately ingest either substance, but I'll keep the information filed away.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Many medications use MAOIs, antidepressants for one. A strict diet is a must when taking them. Usually an herb which acts as an MAOI is ingested, like syrian rue, when using them to enhance hallucinogens.

This is a fact. The most spiritual and "woo" loving DMT guru will confirm, you will not experience anything if you simply ingest pure DMT without an MAOI. If someone dreamed something strange, it was a product of their own imagination being stimulated by the prospect of a DMT experience in my opinion.

 

[Zanders]

I see you follow the Hungarian Phrasebook school of translation there.

PixyMisa, your comments really do seem a bit closed minded. You are making judgments and generalizations without knowing all of the details, so you really can't say that nothing happened.

 

[PixyMisa]

PixyMisa, your comments really do seem a bit closed minded.

No, that's just another excuse for lack of evidence.

You are making judgments and generalizations without knowing all of the details, so you really can't say that nothing happened.

I didn't say nothing happened. I never said nothing happened. I said it didn't happen the way it is being reported now - not a certainty, but nearly - and that it wasn't a ghost or spirit or any nonsense like that - which is a certainty, or as near as anything ever comes to that. I said that the description sounded very much like a simple partial seizure - which it does. And seizures, unlike ghosts, are real.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Many medications use MAOIs, antidepressants for one. A strict diet is a must when taking them. Usually an herb which acts as an MAOI is ingested, like syrian rue, when using them to enhance hallucinogens.

[derail]Please qualify that with "some antidepressants." I understand that few or none of the newer ones (Prozac, et al.) contain MAOIs - I certainly hope they don't because no one ever told me not to eat cheese, and if my antidepressant did contain MAOIs I would be dead several times over. (Cheese being one of my weaknesses.)

I just want to mention that because some people reading might panic if they think their antidepressants contain something that will kill them if they unknowingly ingest an otherwise perfectly innocent food, and rush off to harass their doctors or, worse, simply stop taking their antidepressants.

End of derail. Thanks.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Zanders thought he was experiencing more than his fair share of weirdness too, it's a common feeling. He can probably explain to you how it works. If you think about it rationally, it doesn't make sense that you should be a weirdness magnet any more than anyone else - it's an egocentric view, similar to that which led to thinking the Earth was the centre of the universe. We're predisposed to these forms of thinking. Doesn't mean it's true.

[pedantic mode]


Well, the reason that the earth was thought to be the center of the universe wasn't actually because people thought they were the center of attention. From neoplatonism, the center of the universe was the farthest point away from the heavens, so farthest from God. The earth was considered fallen. We were supposed to be at the center of the universe not because we are special but because we aren't good enough.


[/pedantic mode]

 

[Hellbound]

[pedantic mode]


Well, the reason that the earth was thought to be the center of the universe wasn't actually because people thought they were the center of attention. From neoplatonism, the center of the universe was the farthest point away from the heavens, so farthest from God. The earth was considered fallen. We were supposed to be at the center of the universe not because we are special but because we aren't good enough.


[/pedantic mode]

Which also lead to the idea of Hell being "down"...the only place further away from Heaven than us

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

No, that's just another excuse for lack of evidence.


I didn't say nothing happened. I never said nothing happened. I said it didn't happen the way it is being reported now - not a certainty, but nearly - and that it wasn't a ghost or spirit or any nonsense like that - which is a certainty, or as near as anything ever comes to that. I said that the description sounded very much like a simple partial seizure - which it does. And seizures, unlike ghosts, are real.

Pet peeve: many experiences are blamed on seizures when they are not due to seizures. Personally I don't like to see that diagnosis tossed around without good evidence.

Frankly, to me, it sounds like a better set up for a hypnagogic hallucination than anything else, but not having been present I have no way to tell.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Which also lead to the idea of Hell being "down"...the only place further away from Heaven than us

Yep.

 

[PixyMisa]

Pet peeve: many experiences are blamed on seizures when they are not due to seizures. Personally I don't like to see that diagnosis tossed around without good evidence.

Point taken. I'm a not-a-doctor-let-alone-a-neurogist going on the basis of a single report on a web forum. Nothing I say is to be taken as a diagnosis unless (a) you are a database system and (b) you are paying me at least $180 an hour.

Frankly, to me, it sounds like a better set up for a hypnagogic hallucination than anything else, but not having been present I have no way to tell.

Sure. I was presenting it as a well-known neurological event that closely fit the described circumstances and experiences, to point out that more radical hypotheses seemed unncessary. I didn't suggest a hypnagogic hallucination because I have them myself and mine aren't like that - which just reflects a lack of knowledge on my part.

 

[Hellbound]

Yep.

Although I would argue that this still made us "special". Part of the "victemhood" complex inherit in Xianity...here we are, so unworthy, yet we are still the center, and we can go from such a low position to up high, etc.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Although I would argue that this still made us "special". Part of the "victemhood" complex inherit in Xianity...here we are, so unworthy, yet we are still the center, and we can go from such a low position to up high, etc.

Good point.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Point taken. I'm a not-a-doctor-let-alone-a-neurogist going on the basis of a single report on a web forum. Nothing I say is to be taken as a diagnosis unless (a) you are a database system and (b) you are paying me at least $180 an hour.

Sure. I was presenting it as a well-known neurological event that closely fit the described circumstances and experiences, to point out that more radical hypotheses seemed unncessary. I didn't suggest a hypnagogic hallucination because I have them myself and mine aren't like that - which just reflects a lack of knowledge on my part.

Good point. Since none of us were there, and as you well know reports change over time, especially with retellings, I don't think there is any way to know. No magic necessary, though.

 

[AkuManiMani]

I can count on one hand the number of times per year I even drink alcohol. Though, I must admit that out of curiosity I took some DMT not long after my encounter. I'd requested some from a class mate earlier in the semester and she just happened to come thru with it on the week following the incident. She recommended that I take it orally and suggested that I only take about 20mg of it as she found that dosage more than enough to produce strong effects. I decided I would do a little experiment: I took twice the dosage she recommended (with some alkaline water) before going to sleep to see what effect it would have on my dreams. The results were pretty interesting...

Are you aware that DMT is not active orally without taking an MAO inhibitor and your stomach simply digests and passes the chemical without any psychoactive effect whatsoever? If your friend gave you a mixture of DMT with an MAOI and did not alert you of the health issues they pose, you could have been killed, quite painfully so( simply by eating cheese or some other aged food ). If she did and you just left that out, apologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAOI

As someone who has quite a bit of experience with DMT, I really do not think you could remain asleep if you actually took a psychoactive dose without being gassed.

Of course, with the whole black market thing, people can claim just about anything is DMT without having reliable communication with the person who extracted the analogue.

Well, whatever the composition of the powdered substance she gave me it had extremely powerful psychoactive effects; strong enough that I did not fully "come down" from it until several hours later [ofcourse, I was asleep and dreaming while under it's effects so it's hard to say if that was due more to the composition/dosage of the drug, the REM sleep,or a combination of both]. As I mentioned already, I took the substance with some alkaline water prior to falling asleep to see what affect it would have on my dreams. Do you know of any studies on how DMT (or similar substances) affect dream activity?

[And yes, I am aware of the risk I took. Its something my family has been making a point to emphasize to me ever since. What can I say? My curiosity usually tends to override my sense of caution. On that occasion atleast, satisfaction was enough to bring this cat back ]

 

[sadhatter]

Oh, I got the point of your post quite clearly. Your powers of 'critical thinking' have expanded to the point where you have godlike omniscience that allows you to know what an individual from across the internet has experienced better than they do. Can you tell me what I ate for breakfast today, too?

Your right, people with medical knowledge tend to know more about medical symptoms than those that don't. Trying to make me feel bad by phrasing it as " you know what i experienced better than i doi" is not going to work.

Knowing what someone had for breakfast, that seems more you and Magic Voice's realm.

 

[sadhatter]

Well, whatever the composition of the powdered substance she gave me it had extremely powerful psychoactive effects; strong enough that I did not fully "come down" from it until several hours later [ofcourse, I was asleep and dreaming while under it's effects so it's hard to say if that was due more to the composition/dosage of the drug, the REM sleep,or a combination of both]. As I mentioned already, I took the substance with some alkaline water prior to falling asleep to see what affect it would have on my dreams. Do you know of any studies on how DMT (or similar substances) affect dream activity?

[And yes, I am aware of the risk I took. Its something my family has been making a point to emphasize to me ever since. What can I say? My curiosity usually tends to override my sense of caution. On that occasion atleast, satisfaction was enough to bring this cat back ]

You couldn't identify the powder given to you even when you took it and experienced its effects, but you have adequate medical knowledge to be assured you did not undergo any kind of hallucination or other psychological effect.

That is a weird medical course you took there.