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Changes To The Challenge

Well, being a free forum, that's just something you'll have to learn to live with...I prefer to sit with the borax box, poking a bit into the conversation every now and then.
It's okay. I love it. Really. :)
As I do responding. ;)

...as you pander to this latest court jester....What's your excuse?....Have you looked at it? This is a 60(ish) year old man who is kidding himself that he is telekinetic - or psychic, doesn't really matter - and you're proposing to help him test his abilities....Sounds like fun...I can do that in two words. Crown Casino.
Each to their own. I've done a fair bit of your sort of thing in the past. Maybe you've tried in the past what I'm trying now. But, you never know unless you try. In any case, at this point in time I'm interested in the individual rather than the cause.
Hope you don't mind.

Any way, if you're through with that soap box thing, will you kindly just p!$$ @ff now. :D
 
JM: If I feel I cannot achieve the desired state of mind within about two minutes I will abort the group of four.
What, you're allowed to flip one, flip two, flip three, seeing all the results along the way, then decide you don't like how this group of four is going, and abort it and don't record it as a trial?
I assumed he meant that if, at the start of the group of four, he found that he couldn't achieve the desired state of mind, he would abandon the attempt at the whole group of four. He has already stated thay he will record ALL actual coin tosses. I'm sure he will confirm this in due course.
 
BillyJoe, it is not my intention to exclude any coins. I think a 4 x 4 box would make a miss close to impossible. Since I've already witnessed a coin end up under the chair wheel and on top of my foot maybe one will roll across the floor and down the stairs?

I'm flipping the coin in a small room that we call the "study." The floor is artificial wood laminate flooring. There are a couple 'throw rugs' on the floor, one under the chair at my computer desk and another abutting it. It is this second rug that I toss the coin onto. Many times the coin lands or bounces onto the laminate flooring. Sometimes it bounces against nearby object like the waste basket. I've been counting ALL tosses.

Using a box might remove some concern that the toss was interfered with. It would also assure that the carpet texture is always the same if the tests are done elsewhere since the box could be folded up and taken anywhere. Trying to meet 1000:1 odds is tough. All I'm trying to do is assure a constant level playing field.

Last evening I did two more sets and only broke even...

Set 06 on 02/14/2007 at 5:04 _m to 5:07 pm
Want Tails
Results: T H T H
Note: The last three flips I kept getting a feeling that the coin would be heads but I tried to force it tails.

Set 07 on 02/14/2007 at 8:28 pm to 8:33 pm
Want Heads
Results: T H T H

Trying to make the coins land according to a set pattern is becoming exceedingly difficult and I decided to review what it is I'm trying to accomplish. I'm NOT trying to prove that I can call and toss coins. The coin tossing is only a method that was suggested as proof that I can affect the outcome of events when I want to and that I'm not deluding myself. In the past I've used this ability make events happen that I wanted to happen. By switching the protocol to 4 head then 4 tails the test has moved away from making events happen that I want to happen and has become a test of making events happen according to a set pattern. Therefore since a very high 1000:1 level is required I need to make the tests as close to the original situations were I have used this ability in the past. I need to be able to decide what I desire to happen and then make it happen. For this reason I'm going back to deciding before each coin toss if I want head or tails. Otherwise the test is not consistent with how I've used my ability in the past.

Set 07 on 02/14/2007 at 9:30 pm
Calls: H H T T = 4 tosses
Results: H H T T = 0 wrong

02/15/2007 at 2:30 am
Calls: H H T H H H H T T T = 10 tosses
Results:T T T H H H H H T T = 3 wrong

Using only tosses were I chose the outcome desired:
Original first tosses:
12 tosses
1 wrong

Current tosses:
14 tosses
3 wrong

Total tosses:
26 tosses
4 wrong

One more toss, right or wrong meets the 1:1000 odds required.
It looks like I can affect the desired outcome of events and that I can demonstrate such by tossing coins. A public demonstration (such as needed for the MDC) would be stressful. I'll need to do more tests under stressful conditions and see if I can still meet the odds.

Hey, this almost 60 yr old man woke up to go pee in the middle of the night so I ran the above tests and wrote this post. I may be getting old but I'm a long way from being senile.

Jim_Mich
 
About the box

BillyJoe, it is not my intention to exclude any coins.
That's what I thought.
But you seem to be doing this in your analysis below. :( (see later)

I think a 4 x 4 box would make a miss close to impossible. Since I've already witnessed a coin end up under the chair wheel and on top of my foot maybe one will roll across the floor and down the stairs?
Fair enough...as long as a coin hitting the walls of the box doesn't invalidate the test. As you say, you need to count ALL tosses.

I'm flipping the coin in a small room that we call the "study." The floor is artificial wood laminate flooring. There are a couple 'throw rugs' on the floor, one under the chair at my computer desk and another abutting it. It is this second rug that I toss the coin onto. Many times the coin lands or bounces onto the laminate flooring. Sometimes it bounces against nearby object like the waste basket.
Gripes, I thought you had wall to wall carpet! Your testing zone is too complex and unpredictable. Let's go with the box. As long as you can ALWAYS land it in the box. And as long as the coin hitting the walls of the box causes no interference with your ability to affect the coin.

All I'm trying to do is assure a constant level playing field.
I understand.

I've been counting ALL tosses.
See below.
 
Using only tosses were I chose the outcome desired:
Original first tosses:
12 tosses
1 wrong

Current tosses:
14 tosses
3 wrong

Total tosses:
26 tosses
4 wrong

So where exactly did these numbers come from? From the results you've posted earlier :

So far today I've tossed the coin 12 times...

Set 03 on 02/14/2007 at 10:12 am to 10:18 am
Want Heads
Results: T H H H

Set 04 on 02/14/2007 at 2:20 pm to 2:23 pm
Want Tails
Results: T H T T
Note: 2nd toss coin bounced and came to rest on top of foot.

Set 05 on 02/14/2007 at 3:56 pm to 3:59 pm
Want Heads
Results: H H H T

Jim_Mich

I did the second flip about an hour ago...

Set 02 on 02/13/2007 at 10:12 pm to 10:18 pm
Want Tails
Results: T H T T

At this point I'm 75 percent right.

Jim_Mich

Last evening I did two more sets and only broke even...

Set 06 on 02/14/2007 at 5:04 _m to 5:07 pm
Want Tails
Results: T H T H
Note: The last three flips I kept getting a feeling that the coin would be heads but I tried to force it tails.

Set 07 on 02/14/2007 at 8:28 pm to 8:33 pm
Want Heads
Results: T H T H

Set 07 on 02/14/2007 at 9:30 pm
Calls: H H T T = 4 tosses
Results: H H T T = 0 wrong

02/15/2007 at 2:30 am
Calls: H H T H H H H T T T = 10 tosses
Results:T T T H H H H H T T = 3 wrong

So far you have posted the results of 38 tosses. Of these 11 were wrong. That is 71% accuracy. Why do the results you've posted and the conclusion you have come to at the end have no relation to each other whatsoever?
 
The State of Play

JM,

You've lost me with your analysis.
I think you've done well, but here is how I see the state of play up to this point:

Original ten (6 +4) tests (before the protocol):

Your call: HHTTTT TTHH
The result:HHTTTT TTHH
Tally: 10/10 or 100%


Two tests when you were tired and two tossed by your wife:

Your call: HH HH
The result:TH TT
Tally: 11/14 or 78%


Series of five runs of four tests where you alternated heads and Tails (total of 20 tests):

Your call: HHHH TTTT HHHH TTTT HHHH
The result:HHTH THTT HHHT THTH THTH
Tally: 24/34 or 70%


First set of tosses (4) on the changed protocol where you go for what feels right:
Your call: HHTT
The result:HHTT
Tally: 28/38 or 73%


Second set of tosses (ten) on the changed protocol where you go for what feels right:
Your call: TTTHHHHHTT
The result:HHTHHHHTTT
Tally: 35/48 or 73%


Remember we agreed to countl ALL tosses.
 
Cuddles,

We cross-posted.
You forgot the original ten tosses before the protocol.

regards,
BillyJoe
 
About the Changed Protocol

Trying to make the coins land according to a set pattern is becoming exceedingly difficult and I decided to review what it is I'm trying to accomplish. I'm NOT trying to prove that I can call and toss coins. The coin tossing is only a method that was suggested as proof that I can affect the outcome of events when I want to and that I'm not deluding myself. In the past I've used this ability make events happen that I wanted to happen. By switching the protocol to 4 head then 4 tails the test has moved away from making events happen that I want to happen and has become a test of making events happen according to a set pattern. Therefore since a very high 1000:1 level is required I need to make the tests as close to the original situations were I have used this ability in the past. I need to be able to decide what I desire to happen and then make it happen. For this reason I'm going back to deciding before each coin toss if I want head or tails. Otherwise the test is not consistent with how I've used my ability in the past.
Well, I can't argue about how your ability works. If you need to decide for yourself what you want to happen (rather than by what others want you to want to happen - hope you can parse that :D ), that's the way it has to be.
However, this makes it much more complicated, because there is more room for error, intended or unintended.

The reason I suggested trying to make all coins come out heads, is that there is no possiblity of forgetting what you are going for - it's always heads. Also the pattern of the tossed coins make it obvious that there is something special going on.
Here is how the results of your coin tosses would have looked if you had always gone for heads:

HHHHHHHHHHTHTTHHTHHTHHHHHTHTHTTHTHHHHHTTHHHHHTHH

Pretty impressive hey!
Now the results of the tosses are going to look pretty random.
 
Can anyone tell how many tosses will be necessary to have a statistically significant result? 73% out of only 48 tosses does not seem to me to be an unlikely series of events.
 
Using only tosses were I chose the outcome desired:

Stop! Statistical error alert!

You've done a number of coin tosses and got results. Some of these were not as satisfactory as expected. You thought about the circumstances of these tosses and inferred the possible cause of failure - that the coin landed under the chair, that your wife could not be forced, or, in this case, that you were doing something other than you originally wanted to do. So far so good, all of these could actually be true.

However, by going back and filtering the data according to this deduced rule, you are committing a statistical error of data dredging. You can't do that. You cannot use the same data to infer a rule from and to test this rule against, because the result will be biased.

Note that it is acceptable to infer such rules and change conditions under which you want to perform (such as, decide not to force heads only, but call the toin before the toss), BUT then you MUST discard all data that you gathered so far and start anew.

It is not all right to gather data, change conditions based upon experience from this gathering and still use the data as valid samples. It is okay, however, to collect data, change conditions, and then gather more data to test your refined hypothesis.
 
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The first 6 +4 and 2 when tired = 12
Then the last 4 +10 = 14
Makes 4/26 total using a protocol where I chose what I want to flip.

Even using the 35/48 tally produces odds of 1:958.

I've started tossing coins while under stress by lack of sleep, tired and hungry. I'll try to setup some other stressful situations. When I have "practiced" under these conditions and feel I can handle them then I will start a fresh new group of test. I'll keep records of ALL the stressful tests including conditions and results. I don't think there is need for me to continue posting results here. I'll work on learning how I do under stress over the next few weeks and see if I think I might succeed with the MDC testing.

Jim_Mich

PS.
steenkh, Look back on the previous page.
 
Thabiguy,
I fully understand what you are saying. But in this case I mixed two different protocols. All I have done now is separate the two. They should have never been mixed in the first place.

Jim_Mich
 
Also the pattern of the tossed coins make it obvious that there is something special going on.

This is not a good way to test. Evaluating results based upon perceived patterns is inherently skewed. You don't want clustering illusion to interfere with the evaluation.

HHHHHHHHHHTHTTHHTHHTHHHHHTHTHTTHTHHHHHTTHHHHHTHH

Pretty impressive hey!

No. This particular result is equally likely to HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. It is also equally likely to
THTTHTHTTTHTHHTTHHHHTHTHHHHHTTHTHTTTTHHHTHTTTHTT or any other particular result. It is a fallacy to assume that a result is less likely to occur just because it is highly patterned. The statistical result of 75% heads and 25% tails is less likely to occur than 50% heads and 50% tails, but a pattern having 75% heads is in fact equally likely to any other pattern. That's why you should never visually scan results for patterns, but only evaluate statistical results.

Also, there is another problem with making Jim_Mich only force heads. If the underlying mechanism for the alleged phenomenon (which has not been shown yet) is that Jim actually predicts the outcome of an external event and merely misinterprets that as being able to force it, your test would give a negative result even if a genuine paranormal phenomenon was taking place.
 
Cuddles,

We cross-posted.
You forgot the original ten tosses before the protocol.

regards,
BillyJoe

I was only counting the ones after the protocol was agreed. Interesting that we get almost exactly the same result even including the extra ones.

The first 6 +4 and 2 when tired = 12
Then the last 4 +10 = 14
Makes 4/26 total using a protocol where I chose what I want to flip.

Even using the 35/48 tally produces odds of 1:958.

I've started tossing coins while under stress by lack of sleep, tired and hungry. I'll try to setup some other stressful situations. When I have "practiced" under these conditions and feel I can handle them then I will start a fresh new group of test. I'll keep records of ALL the stressful tests including conditions and results. I don't think there is need for me to continue posting results here. I'll work on learning how I do under stress over the next few weeks and see if I think I might succeed with the MDC testing.

And here we go with the excuses. If you look through previous tests you will see exactly the same thing. You agreed to try a protocol. You didn't get the results you wanted, therefore you must change and/or ignore results in order to show that you really did do something special. This is why many people think asking you to self-test is a waste of time. We already know you think you are special and nothing you do will convince you otherwise. What is needed is to convince someone else that you can do antything. It is awfully telling that you have never told anyone before because you thought you would have difficulty proving it. Ask yourself why is it hard to prove? Why is it so hard to sit your wife down for 10 minutes and show that you can predict coin tosses with 90% accuracy? If you are the only one that can see this ability, what makes you think it actually exists?
 
I've started tossing coins while under stress by lack of sleep, tired and hungry. I'll try to setup some other stressful situations. When I have "practiced" under these conditions and feel I can handle them then I will start a fresh new group of test. I'll keep records of ALL the stressful tests including conditions and results. I don't think there is need for me to continue posting results here. I'll work on learning how I do under stress over the next few weeks and see if I think I might succeed with the MDC testing.
See you in 3 weeks then.
 
This is not a good way to test. Evaluating results based upon perceived patterns is inherently skewed. You don't want clustering illusion to interfere with the evaluation.
Hey, listen, if someone says they can make a coin toss come out heads every time and he gets the following in a series of 48 tosses:
HHHHHHHHHHTHTTHHTHHTHHHHHTHTHTTHTHHHHHTTHHHHHTHH
I'm impressed. Don't know about you.
This type of pattern falls way outside the situation covered by the clustering illusion (I'll elaborate if you wish).

No. This particular result is equally likely to HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. It is also equally likely to
THTTHTHTTTHTHHTTHHHHTHTHHHHHTTHTHTTTTHHHTHTTTHTT or any other particular result. It is a fallacy to assume that a result is less likely to occur just because it is highly patterned.
We're talking apples and oranges. What I'm impying with my post, without outright saying it, is that a result with a recognisable pattern is far less likely than a result without a recognisable pattern. Simply because there are far less results with a recognisable pattern than without.

For example a result with a highly recognisable pattern such as:
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
is far less likely than a result without a recognisable pattern such as:
HHTHTTHHTTHTHTTHHHTHTTTHHTHTHHTHTHHTHTTTTH
In fact there are only two of them the other being:
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
Whereas there are millions without a recognisable pattern.


The statistical result of 75% heads and 25% tails is less likely to occur than 50% heads and 50% tails, but a pattern having 75% heads is in fact equally likely to any other pattern.
Yes, that's what I'm saying.

If JM produces a recognisable pattern with lots of heads when he is going for heads, the result is immediately obvious as having been unlikely to have been produced by mere chance. There is a run of 10 heads and three runs of 5 heads in his series of 48 tosses (as I said, outside the situation covered by the clustering illusion). If JM goes with heads or tails in a random manner or according to what feels right at the time, he will produce a random pattern every time he does a run of coin tosses. Similar to what anyone without any power produces.

Perhaps I'm not explaining it well.

Also, there is another problem with making Jim_Mich only force heads. If the underlying mechanism for the alleged phenomenon (which has not been shown yet) is that Jim actually predicts the outcome of an external event and merely misinterprets that as being able to force it, your test would give a negative result even if a genuine paranormal phenomenon was taking place.
I see your point.

But the idea of the challenge is to test JM on what he says he can do. Randi is at pains to say that he is not interested in explanations of how contestants can do what they say they can do. All he is interested in is the contestant telling him clearly what he can do - and then do it. JM says he can force things to happen. He says he can force a coin to land the way he wants. Let him show that he can do it. Who knows what the mechanism is. Who cares. Why even bother about mechanism when we have yet to prove it can even be done.

JM now says he cannot make the coin land all heads. Who knows why he can't. Who cares. He says he cannot do it. End of story. Except that we are homing in on what exactly it is that he can do.
JM now says he cannot consistently make it four heads alternating with four tails. Again who knows and who cares. He can't do it. So now we have it narrowed down a little further.
 
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And here we go with the excuses. If you look through previous tests you will see exactly the same thing. You agreed to try a protocol. You didn't get the results you wanted, therefore you must change and/or ignore results in order to show that you really did do something special.
I don't get it. What has JM got to do with previous tests by previous contestants? He is not making excuses. He has clearly stated right from the start that he cannot make heads come up every time. Now he has clearly stated that he cannot do it with alternate runs of four heads and four tails. So he is already finding out that the power he thought he had is very much more constrained than he previously thought. He can force coin tosses without a recognisable pattern but he cannot force coin tosses with a recognisable pattern.

This is why many people think asking you to self-test is a waste of time. We already know you think you are special and nothing you do will convince you otherwise.
You don't know that, you are just extrapolating. You are extrapolating that he does not have a special power and you are extrapolating that he cannot be convinced otherwise if it is shown he doesn't have it.

What is needed is to convince someone else that you can do antything. It is awfully telling that you have never told anyone before because you thought you would have difficulty proving it. Ask yourself why is it hard to prove? Why is it so hard to sit your wife down for 10 minutes and show that you can predict coin tosses with 90% accuracy? If you are the only one that can see this ability, what makes you think it actually exists?
Just look at the reaction he has got from members of this forum - even while he is in the process of trying to come up with a test of his powers - and you wil understand why he has hidden away. You and others have judged, convicted, and sentenced him to solitary confinement whilst the trial is still being conducted. You think you are sceptics but you're just a bunch of...oops, I'd better stop now :(

regards,
BillyJoe
 
Jim, Have you ever heard the phrase "Lets make it 2 out of 3 then."?

By continuing an open ended experiment until the results are in your favor is simply taking a random walk. Eventually the results will always be in your favor. The complete test must be specified in advanced before a statistical probability can be assigned to the results.

Testing yourself by flipping a coin was a pour suggestion because it leaves open too many other variables. The biggest of these is self deception. Being able to fool yourself is not a paranormal power. In order to prove that you have this power, even to yourself, you must first accept the premiss that you might be fooling yourself and devise a valid scientific test that will exclude that possibility. Otherwise, all anybody else will see is that a fool is being fooled and all you will see are the results that you expect to see.
 

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