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Changes To The Challenge

Moochie said:
Peace butterfly. After all, there is one million dollars involved, not chump change by anyone's measure.

M.
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Mate, I am well aware of that, which is exactly why I suggested the above option in terms of how to make a statement. The amount of money involved is completely irrelevant, because JREF and Randi knew what was at stake. All I'm asking is that, like any business or institution which desires credibility, if you nominate a time frame - stick to it. There would have been nothing wrong with not putting a finite date on the OP, but Jeff did and Randi has himself done it at least twice in the meantime.

Look, personally, I have a high regard for JREF and Randi and I don't want to see them tarred with the same brush that less reputable organisations do when they come out with this constant changing and conflicting statements.

Mate, you're up bright and early - you off to the Valley today? Either way, what's the weather like there?
 
Almo said:
I seriously doubt many people here care when the information is made public.
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Dang! Silly me. Just because I'm in a thead entitled, "Changes To The Challenge" started by the paid executive of JREF, in a sub-forum entitled, "Million Dollar Challenge, I'd thought people would have an interest.

Apologies, mate, I'll switch this thread off now.
 
The Atheist said:
Correct!

I've already explained that I don't care when or if the review and changes are ever made - just that once a time frame is mentioned, stick to it.
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Unfortunately, the real world doesn't always work like that. It is entirely possible that something important came up that needed to be addressed before the release of the information. As a software developer, I can tell you that it is more common to miss a deadline that it is to stick to it. It is better (at least in the software world) to release later than expected, than it is to release on time with a crappy product.

Dotting i's and crossing t's can be more time consuming than people expect. When a million dollars is at stake, you need to make sure every i gets it's dot and every t gets it's cross.
 
Grimoire said:
Unfortunately, the real world doesn't always work like that.
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I am dead-set: :dl: !

So, you're saying that JREF obviously is not in the "real world", because anyone in that "real world" would understand that deadlines can sometimes change. Accordingly, anyone in the "real world" making statements about changes to a million-dollar project would be highly circumspect about giving out deadlines. Take a look at Wembley Stadium in London if you think that isn't common knowledge. Businesses and organisations which cannot keep to deadlines lose credibility, money and respect.

N.B. I'M PUTTING THIS IN CAPS SO NOBODY CAN CLAIM TO HAVE MISSED IT IN THIS POST! I AM NOT SUGGESTING JREF IS LOSING ANY OF THOSE, I AM SAYING IT MIGHT WELL DO. I WOULD PREFER THAT NOT TO HAPPEN - OK?

No joke, just the way I feel about it.

Sorry, Grimoire, but if I don't do that, I'll be accused of attacking JREF and I am not.

I do not need a lesson in how, why or when things happen in business, yet every poster seems to be trying to give me one. I have already said, SEVERAL times, that all that was needed is a "whoops, we'll get back to you". Now we have that from Randi, so we from now, we will wait and see.
 
I've always been of the opinion that timetables don't really reflect how long you expect something to take, instead it indicates the time period during which you don't want people bothering you about it, asking how long it will take.

That system seems to have worked well, in that when the suggested time period elapsed, people asked about it and were responded to.

Now the timetable seems to be, "until it's ready", so it'd apper the period for which they wish not to be asked about it is currently "forever" :)
 
The Atheist said:
So, you're saying that JREF obviously is not in the "real world", because anyone in that "real world" would understand that deadlines can sometimes change.
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Not at all. You are intentionally misrepresenting what I said. I am simply saying that if you make a schedule, you shouldn't stick to it if the situation demands more time. You said:
I've already explained that I don't care when or if the review and changes are ever made - just that once a time frame is mentioned, stick to it.
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You state that they should be held to their original schedule. I am refuting that.

Accordingly, anyone in the "real world" making statements about changes to a million-dollar project would be highly circumspect about giving out deadlines. Take a look at Wembley Stadium in London if you think that isn't common knowledge. Businesses and organisations which cannot keep to deadlines lose credibility, money and respect.
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Many companies slip deadlines, but depending on the circumstance, it does not mean that they will lose credibility, money or respect. I make the claim that it can be more important to miss a deadline and spend the extra time to make sure things are done correctly, than it is to make an artificial deadline with poor results. Releasing something that is complete rubbish will damage credibility, money and respect far more than missing a self imposed time table.

N.B. I'M PUTTING THIS IN CAPS SO NOBODY CAN CLAIM TO HAVE MISSED IT IN THIS POST! I AM NOT SUGGESTING JREF IS LOSING ANY OF THOSE, I AM SAYING IT MIGHT WELL DO. I WOULD PREFER THAT NOT TO HAPPEN - OK?
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And I am stating that it might do worse by sticking to the original. And I won't shout about it either.

that all that was needed is a "whoops, we'll get back to you". Now we have that from Randi, so we from now, we will wait and see.
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Yes, with patience.
 
petre said:
I've always been of the opinion that timetables don't really reflect how long you expect something to take, instead it indicates the time period during which you don't want people bothering you about it, asking how long it will take.
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I like that. Now if only I can convince my boss to go along. Mind you, sometimes you can end up with projects like the aptly named Duke Nukem Forever.
 
The Atheist said:
The front page of the JREF has a calendar of how long it's been since Sylvia Browne agreed to take a challenge and hasn't - how long before her website (or some other clown's) having a page up showing how long it's been since this thread started?
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There is a world of difference between missing a deadline when implimenting internal changes and agreeing to demonstrate something to others and then not following through.
 
Thinktoomuch said:
Was that a typo or a pun I don't understand? I agree that this thread is wearing quite thin, though.:)
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Vaporware
Vaporware or vapourware (see spelling differences) is software or hardware which is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge, either with or without a protracted development cycle. The term implies unwarranted optimism, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility.
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I take it you can see some similarity between what Randi and co promise and vapourware? :D

Actually I do not see much need to change much. They can get rid of most of the applications now by rejecting them for not following the rules. I do not see that people will stop applying just because the rules have changed.

Edit - Sorry about the spelling error in my previous post.
 
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Moochie said:
Trust bloody Kiwis to be rational.

M.
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I hear Fields of Omagh's challenging for the Million after yesterday. That's the closest to a paranormal event I've ever seen. Betcha the bookies would fund that one!
 
steenkh said:
But this does not change the fact that skeptics are losing a major weapon with this decision, and I have a right to bemoan it.
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I hear what you are saying. But I don't think skeptics are losing the weapon.

I often use the JREF challenge as a "come to your senses" tool. Yeah, if that hippie chick in the trailer park that has convinced you to go to her for readings three times a week at $50 a pop is the "real deal" psychic, then why doesn't she just win the JREF challenge? Sure, if you are psychic and can tell when someone is about to call you, then why not win the JREF challenge?

But the argument is still there. JREF offered for 10 years (or however many years) a prize of $1 million to ANYONE who could prove ANYTHING paranormal. All that were tested failed. Sometimes they failed because they were caught cheating. Many were not tested because they couldn’t even complete an application or establish a protocol because they had mental problems. Many that applied backed out when it became apparent that the protocol would prohibit them from cheating. Many more never applied because they knew that they could not do what they claimed without cheating.

No one, not anyone, ever, never, even passed a preliminary test. No one. Not ever. Not any celebrities on TV, not any famous book authors, not any proclaimed psychic detectives, not any corporations, not any university professors. No one. Not any one.

Yet you think that trailer-park-hippie-chick is the “real deal” psychic? Yet you believe that you have magical pre-telephonic clairvoyance? Get real. These things are SO absurd and have been shot down and unproven for so many years that JREF probably won’t even entertain them anymore. If you or your psychic friend can do such amazing things that no one ever, nobody never, has been able to prove before, then surely you can do a demonstration that will catch at least some attention to get you in to the JREF challenge that will get you that million bucks.

Seems like basically the same kind of argument to me. :)
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
I often use the JREF challenge as a "come to your senses" tool. Yeah, if that hippie chick in the trailer park that has convinced you to go to her for readings three times a week at $50 a pop is the "real deal" psychic, then why doesn't she just win the JREF challenge? Sure, if you are psychic and can tell when someone is about to call you, then why not win the JREF challenge?
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I've answered that question before, DA, but it bears repeating. The "come to your senses" crowd reason like this: It is axiomatic that there is a large pool of genuine psychics in the world, any of whom could win the prize at any time of their choosing. That no one has ever succeeded in winning is clear evidence that Randi is somehow cheating, or rigging the contest... otherwise Sylvia Browne/John Edward/Uri Geller/Enter your favourite psychic's name here would be $1 million richer by now.
Make of that argument what you will.
 
Kimpatsu said:
IThat no one has ever succeeded in winning is clear evidence that Randi is somehow cheating, or rigging the contest... otherwise Sylvia Browne/John Edward/Uri Geller/Enter your favourite psychic's name here would be $1 million richer by now.
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None of them have taken the challenge. So how could any of them have been cheated? :confused:
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
None of them have taken the challenge. So how could any of them have been cheated? :confused:
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They did not take the Challenge in the first place because they know Mr. Randi cheats. D'uh.

(As with their respective claims, they do not need to prove that to their loyal followers. Double d'uh.
BillHoyt would have said: "Life In The Woo Lane.") :D
 
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