Challenge to those accusing the Dems of "socialism"

[Undesired Walrus]

Heath insurance has nothing to do with "the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange".

My point.

 

[Trakar]

Is the definition of Socialism soley determined by economic policy as the OP seems to indicate?

In strict terms, that's what socialism is, an economic philosophy largely revolving around a centrally planned and directed economy. It has grown to use politically, but as such, has such a broad and often internally conflicted definition as to make the term without consistent concensual application (pretty much the same as the term "democracy" which suffers many similar issues).

In truth, virtually all nations (past and present) have employed mixed economic systems containing elements of Capitalism, Socialism and Communism, as far as I know, no really pure form of any of the three has ever been seriously attempted. I'm led to believe that the systems which strive toward exclusivity in any direction, have been those most prone to failure and economic ruin, but, if anyone is aware of exceptions or examples which I am overlooking, I'd be interested in examining such!

 

[Juniversal]

Socialism can be defined in many different ways, which is why I posed the question.

You're an admitted Socialist what does it mean to you?

The ole "there's many ways socialism can be defined so I wont attempt to explain how he's a socialist" defense. What a cop out.

I love how some try and act as if Socialism is such a fluid word that they can't definitively explain how Obama's a Socialist all the while promoting the idea that he's some sort of hardcore socialist.

 

[rustypouch]

>.>

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

My point.

Ah! Sometimes you have to wave a flag for me.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Is the definition of Socialism soley determined by economic policy as the OP seems to indicate?

It seemed obvious to me that he asked people to state their own definition and then relate it to the rest with evidence.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Since those who like to make the "socialism" accusation aren't likely to comply with the OP's request, I like to point out that Orwell listed it as among those political terms that have no meaning whatsoever other than "good" or "bad" and are used merely to be inflammatory. They appear to have meaning but don't actually.

Of socialism, he specifically includes it among those words that have so many different (and even conflicting) meanings that they are rendered meaningless.

From "Politics and the English Language" (my bolding):

Meaningless words. In certain kinds of writing, particularly in art criticism and literary criticism, it is normal to come across long passages which are almost completely lacking in meaning.† Words like romantic, plastic, values, human, dead, sentimental, natural, vitality, as used in art criticism, are strictly meaningless, in the sense that they not only do not point to any discoverable object, but are hardly ever expected to do so by the reader. When one critic writes, "The outstanding feature of Mr. X's work is its living quality," while another writes, "The immediately striking thing about Mr. X's work is its peculiar deadness," the reader accepts this as a simple difference opinion. If words like black and white were involved, instead of the jargon words dead and living, he would see at once that language was being used in an improper way.

Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable." The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like Marshal Pétain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality.

 

[Trakar]

Originally Posted by George Orwell...

Seriously!?!?!

temporal transposition, does this count as one of the "out of place" artifacts questioned about in a seperate thread?

 

[easycruise]

""Some socialists advocate complete nationalisation of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Socialists inspired by the Soviet model of economic development have advocated the creation of centrally planned economies directed by a state that owns all the means of production. ""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Ok, then we have this..

"These are the 1960s liberals whom Mr. Obama has empowered and who have run Washington the last two years:

• David Obey, first elected in 1969, wrote the $814 billion stimulus and directed it toward transfer payments rather than job-producing public works.

• Barney Frank, class of '80 and patron of Fannie Mae, wrote the financial reform bill with its 243 new rule-makings and enshrinement of too big to fail.

• Henry Waxman, class of '74, and Ed Markey '76 wrote the cap-and-tax bill that passed the House but failed when Democrats revolted in the Senate. That vote is now punishing Democrats across the U.S.

• Pete Stark, class of '72, drove ObamaCare as far left as it could go in the House, insisting on a new payroll tax. This vote will also end many Democratic careers next week.

• George Miller, class of '74, wrote the federal takeover of the student loan industry and is Speaker Nancy Pelosi's chief enforcer.""

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...75578410626436120.html?mod=djemBestOfTheWeb_h

Takeover of healthcare
Takeover of student loans
Takeover of domestic car industry (partial)
Eliminate the rule of law with Chrysler bond holders and Delphi non-union pensioners

Hard to believe that so many people voted for Obama. Epic failure.

I sure hope Chris Christie runs for President. Love that guy.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/your-daily-chris-christie/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkuTm-ON904

 

[ProBonoShill]

this thread is not about me, it is about you people that claim Obama is a socialist. So it is you that has to post your definition of Socialism and also evidence that shows that Obama is a socialist according to your own definition.

i wonder if you are able to do so.

The OP asked for those who cry socialism to say exactly what they mean by that. Saying “I can’t because no one will tell me what socialism means” is not a very good response. In fact it’s a response pretty much confirms the OP’s suggestion that the people who are decrying socialism don’t have a clue what they are objecting to.

The ole "there's many ways socialism can be defined so I wont attempt to explain how he's a socialist" defense. What a cop out.

Whoa.

Down boys.

Where have I claimed Obama is a socialist?

I was simply asking for clarification of the OP because Socialism means different things to different people:

In strict terms, that's what socialism is, an economic philosophy largely revolving around a centrally planned and directed economy. It has grown to use politically, but as such, has such a broad and often internally conflicted definition as to make the term without consistent concensual application (pretty much the same as the term "democracy" which suffers many similar issues).

In truth, virtually all nations (past and present) have employed mixed economic systems containing elements of Capitalism, Socialism and Communism, as far as I know, no really pure form of any of the three has ever been seriously attempted. I'm led to believe that the systems which strive toward exclusivity in any direction, have been those most prone to failure and economic ruin, but, if anyone is aware of exceptions or examples which I am overlooking, I'd be interested in examining such!

Thanks.

 

[daenku32]

""Some socialists advocate complete nationalisation of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Socialists inspired by the Soviet model of economic development have advocated the creation of centrally planned economies directed by a state that owns all the means of production. ""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Ok, then we have this..

"These are the 1960s liberals whom Mr. Obama has empowered and who have run Washington the last two years:

• David Obey, first elected in 1969, wrote the $814 billion stimulus and directed it toward transfer payments rather than job-producing public works.
...

I was following you along until I hit that factually incorrect statement. Then I gave up.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I was simply asking for clarification of the OP because Socialism means different things to different people:

And that's exactly why the OP is asking those who make the "socialism" accusation to define the term.

It sounds like you agree with me and George Orwell that they're using the term specifically because it has so many definitions it has become effectively meaningless and really only means "bad" somehow.

In other words, if there's any substance to these shrill cries of, "That's socialism!" they should be able to fulfill the OP's request.

 

[A'isha]

Whoa.

Down boys.

Where have I claimed Obama is a socialist?

I was simply asking for clarification of the OP because Socialism means different things to different people:

Pick your own definition. Any definition; the OP indicated he didn't care, as long as you could articulate a coherent definition of what "socialism" means to you.

Then all you need to do is explain, as best you can as with as much evidence as you can muster, how Democratic Party policies are "socialist' by the terms of the definition you chose.

 

[keale]

""Some socialists advocate complete nationalisation of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Socialists inspired by the Soviet model of economic development have advocated the creation of centrally planned economies directed by a state that owns all the means of production. ""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Ok, then we have this..

"These are the 1960s liberals whom Mr. Obama has empowered and who have run Washington the last two years:

• David Obey, first elected in 1969, wrote the $814 billion stimulus and directed it toward transfer payments rather than job-producing public works.

• Barney Frank, class of '80 and patron of Fannie Mae, wrote the financial reform bill with its 243 new rule-makings and enshrinement of too big to fail.

• Henry Waxman, class of '74, and Ed Markey '76 wrote the cap-and-tax bill that passed the House but failed when Democrats revolted in the Senate. That vote is now punishing Democrats across the U.S.

• Pete Stark, class of '72, drove ObamaCare as far left as it could go in the House, insisting on a new payroll tax. This vote will also end many Democratic careers next week.

• George Miller, class of '74, wrote the federal takeover of the student loan industry and is Speaker Nancy Pelosi's chief enforcer.""

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...75578410626436120.html?mod=djemBestOfTheWeb_h

Takeover of healthcare
Takeover of student loans
Takeover of domestic car industry (partial)
Eliminate the rule of law with Chrysler bond holders and Delphi non-union pensioners

Hard to believe that so many people voted for Obama. Epic failure.

I sure hope Chris Christie runs for President. Love that guy.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/your-daily-chris-christie/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkuTm-ON904

From now on whenever someone asks me to post my own words im going to cut and paste wikipedia. What makes that really cool is it shows how much I really know about the subject in question.

On your first point are you suggesting that injecting money into "job producing public works" is less socialized???? Uhhh ok gotcha!! Im going to stop reading there and conclude that you are only interested in blaming one side for all the ills of the world even when its clear you have little understanding of what it is you are accusing the other side of. Thank you very much for making that clear.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Takeover of healthcare

False. Health care is still a private industry (except for the VA). What was passed was largely health insurance reform.

 

[keale]

False. Health care is still a private industry (except for the VA). What was passed was largely health insurance reform.

I suspect many are not well informed about the new health care bill but having said that I am certain there are those that are simply lying and making up false information to mislead.

 

[Juniversal]

Whoa.

Down boys.

Where have I claimed Obama is a socialist?

I was simply asking for clarification of the OP because Socialism means different things to different people:



Thanks.

Do you blame me for reacting like that? The word is thrown around so much with reckless abandon and that excuse is a very typical response from those who apply the title to Obama.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Maybe some examples of "socialist" programs put into place by Obama would settle this. Any takers?

 

[keale]

Maybe some examples of "socialist" programs put into place by Obama would settle this. Any takers?

Are we discussing socialism or whether if not you think Obama is a socialist? If its Obama how many republicans would you consider to be socialists? over the last 30 years how many republicans do you think have supported some socialized program? I have no problem with you or anyone else calling socialism as long as you admit that both sides have supported socialist policies when it suited them. You cant have it both ways...IF they/them are "evil socialists" then we and/or you are too.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Why is Obama a socialist when he keeps healthcare privatised, but Bush, McCain and Palin aren't when they support a $700 Billion capitalisation of the banks in 2008?