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Challenge question for evolution doubters

I've been reading Genesis, by Robert Hazen, which is a fascinating book about the possible beginnings of life. He explains a variety of current theories on the subject, including some of his own research.

Reading some of the current literature has brought me to the conclusion that "Intelligent Design" is an outright insult. To think that scientists with multiple degrees are doing DNA research, trying to recreate the environment of hydrothermal vents in the ocean, figuring out the existence of carbon-based molecules on a wet planet, etc., etc.,...

...while the IDers simply have to say, "God did it. God did it. God did it. God did it."

It's an outrage. And even more outrageous is that when scientists figure out exactly how it all happened, IDers will still say that God orchestrated it all.

I agree with ChristineR. There is no convincing come people.
 
Kleinman If you are so content on dismissing evolution as being an explanation to our existence what do you propose?

I mean Logically God could not be an answer because if we only came into existence because of a creator using the same logic who created the creator? How can you agree that a god came from nothing or never came at all ( atleast not until mary) its simply silly.
 
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T'ai Chi said:
All I know is that

time + chance = magic

It's true. :)
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If that's true (and I very much doubt it--I would call it rhetoric), I very much pity you.

Magic is an "explanation" that closes doors--says "heere be dragones", or "you will never know", or just "give up now; it's hopeless". Almost anything is better--even (or perhaps especially) "I don't know" (especially if we add "yet").

I know there are people here who still use the word "spirituality", claiming a non-religious sense of the word. Perhaps they would appreciate your use of "magic" in the same sense. I don't like either. Real life is so much more amazing than magic. And, frankly, would be even if it weren't also real. How cool is it that it actually is real....
 
ChristineR said:
I am of the opinion that there is NO evidence that could ever convince a creationist that he is wrong because you can never rule out the possibility that God created life to look exactly as it evolved.
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Of course there isn't. It isn't a knowledge deficit that is the problem.

I was hoping the thread might point that out to a few of them.
 
So what so-called god, made the god, that made the god, that made the god, that made the.............

Paul

:) :) :)
 
The divide between skeptics and believers runs deep down into attitudes of what is important in one's life, and what is to be assigened as real.
You wonder why you can throw fact after fact at a hard core believer, and s/he ignores it; or how your requst for evidence gets a non-useful answer.
Just bear in mind that for the believer the ideal world, the holy history, the unseen substance of faith is what constitutes reality or has the priority.

To the pios mind of faith, facts about the physical world take a back seat. The content of faith is sacred, while scientific investigation is profane.
It is faithfull and virtuous to believe in spite of the contrary apperances.

But what of the believer whose career is in the sciences? He or she is thrown agaisnt a wall of cognitive dissonance where it is pios to maintain that the contents of the faith are somehow scientific. This creates an even wider blind spot.

I doubt there's any cure for it. We are talking personalities, personas, and individual ego identities here. The prevelant feeling is that losing faith is a personal disaster. It is, unless it is transcended, but most don't delve that deeply into their selves.

So. talking facts and evidence has little effect on believers unless they are able to respect the truth in the physical world of appearnces.

In all fairness I should note that there are sceptics who are quite idological in their skepticism and so are subject to blind spots themseves.
But blindspots can be compensated for by keeping the vision moving.
 
Cuddles said:
Turtles all the way down.

Hmm, maybe god really is a giant turtle.:eye-poppi
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Why not, a so-called god can be anything you what it to be, that is the great thing about so-called gods, they can be tailored made to order. You don't like the church you're in, go to another one. You don't like your parents religion and/or the one your in, change it. Your so-called god can be male, female, neither, tall, short, fat, skinny, etc, it is all up to your faith, no need for facts. Or if you what, believe in a lot of different ones to cover more bases, and also announce to the world your belief so your so-called god knows you're doing his work and the points will add up. Tell everyone who doesn’t believe like you why they are wrong, and point out things that they have only heard a thousand times already as if these are new ideas to consider.

And last, but not least, your faith equals fact.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Paulhoff said:
Why not, a so-called god can be anything you what it to be, that is the great thing about so-called gods, they can be tailored made to order. You don't like the church you're in, go to another one. You don't like your parents religion and/or the one your in, change it. Your so-called god can be male, female, neither, tall, short, fat, skinny, etc, it is all up to your faith, no need for facts. Or if you what, believe in a lot of different ones to cover more bases, and also announce to the world your belief so your so-called god knows you're doing his work and the points will add up. Tell everyone who doesn’t believe like you why they are wrong, and point out things that they have only heard a thousand times already as if these are new ideas to consider.

And last, but not least, your faith equals fact.

Paul

:) :) :)
Click to expand...

:D

Love it.
I'm starting a thread based on this.

:cool:
 
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Mercutio said:
I know there are people here who still use the word "spirituality", claiming a non-religious sense of the word. Perhaps they would appreciate your use of "magic" in the same sense. I don't like either. Real life is so much more amazing than magic. And, frankly, would be even if it weren't also real. How cool is it that it actually is real....
Click to expand...
Hmmmm. I might use "spirituality" occasionally, but I don't see it as separate from reality. It's not mystical for me. It has little to do with religion as it's usually presented. It's very difficult to explain, and I don't encounter it often (I'm an old man, and I can count the times on one hand), but I've experienced it and it was, for me, real. If I experience it again, I'll know it. On the other hand, I'm not obsessed with it- though I can see how someone could get to be.

It's a specific state of mind, one that drugs can sometimes poorly mimic but never duplicate. Some people seem to get it from religion. I never have, but that doesn't mean it's not real for them. I don't think it has much to do with what's happening, although for me, it's always associated with a particular event (a different kind each time). I haven't always been aware of it while it was happening, but always knew afterward that it had. It has always stimulated me to keep mementos of the times it did, and I have one for each of them. I can't imagine trying to seek it out- it would be like trying to make your beard grow faster. I really can't explain it, or quantify it- but I can tell you this: if it happens to you, you'll know it, and you'll know what they're talking about- you'll immediately identify it. If it doesn't, then you haven't wasted your life- it's not THAT important.
 
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