challenge history

[Peter Morris]

Check the claims. Don't stop pointing out that the claims have never been backed up. A lie repeated becomes truth, unless countered with facts.

Yes, Larsen, keep claiming that I never answerd. Say it over and over, hope that I will give up countering it with facts. Say it often enough and it becomes the truth.

 

[Peter Morris]

There is no need for one on this occasion.

Yes there is.

The point of offering independent testing is that it ensures FAIRNESS.

No matter how simple the test, if it is done by JREF representatives, they might cheat.

Randi promises independent testing to remove any possibility that Randi might cheat.

Since he refuses independent testing in this particular case, the guarantee of fairness is gone.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yes there is.

The point of offering independent testing is that it ensures FAIRNESS.

No matter how simple the test, if it is done by JREF representatives, they might cheat.

Randi promises independent testing to remove any possibility that Randi might cheat.

Since he refuses independent testing in this particular case, the guarantee of fairness is gone.

I know you understand the issue, but you refuse to acknowledge it. Nevertheless, for those who do not know your background or reasons to be so willingly obtuse, I'll explain.

Fairness is ensured by the agreement between JREF and the applicant that both parties agree to a protocol.

Fairness is ensured by the fact that nothing is kept secret.

Fairness is ensured by the fact that the result must be self-evident - no judging is required.

Randi does not "refuse" to have independent testing in this particular case. There is simply no reason to have this scientist do the test. It is merely a red herring of DALTON's part, that he came up with, once he realized that he could not possibly pass the test.

There is no chance that Randi can cheat on the test. If you think there is, please specify how. It is not enough to say that he could, you have to be specific.

Now, are you going to answer the rest of the questions or not? Just yes or no.

 

[Tricky]

Though it has been said before, Peter, you have steadfastly refused to acknowledge it.

Dalton can have any scientist there he wants.

And you know something? Go right ahead and have a scientist there, if you need one. Please feel free to locate one who would participate. Whatever you need to prove your claim, go right ahead and secure it. It's your claim. And it's your million bucks, should you demonstrate your claim's validity. Even if you have to pay the scientist to be present, just take his fee out of the million bucks. As per the Challenge rules, JREF bears no such expenses.

We mean it, Dalton. If you really must have a scientist present to prove your ice-melting claim, go ahead and have one present. We're fine with that. We never refused any such protocol. It is YOU who have refused to be tested.

So what is it you want Randi to do? Locate the proper kind of scientist? Exactly what is a "high energy" scientist anyway? Would a radiologist work? If not, why not?

Most importantly, why do you think Randi should pay for the services of such a scientist? I'd truly appreciate an answer to these questions.

And just to establish your neutrality on this issue, do you believe for one second that if a scientist were provided that Dalton would not find some other excuse? If so, I'd like to know what in his posts has inspired such confidence.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yes, Larsen, keep claiming that I never answerd. Say it over and over, hope that I will give up countering it with facts. Say it often enough and it becomes the truth.

This is exceptionally ironic, coming from you.

 

[Peter Morris]

This is exceptionally ironic, coming from you.

Why, Larsen? You admitted your own tactics. Keep telling the lie, and if it doesn't get answered it becomes the truth. You begged others to join you in repeating the lie.

 

[Peter Morris]

Though it has been said before, Peter, you have steadfastly refused to acknowledge it.

Dalton can have any scientist there he wants.

Take another look. Kramer only made this offer AFTER I had pointed out that Randi was breaking his promise, and going against his own protocols. The claim had already been closed when Kramer made this offer. This shows Kramer backing down from his previous position of refusal to let an independent scientist test the claim.

Oh, and also, he posted the message in this forum, but did he contact Dalton to tell him? Or just assume that Dalton would hang around and read all the replies.

Far from challenging my position, this shows that I was in the right. Kramer is recognising that he was wrong to refuse independent testing.

 

[Peter Morris]

So what is it you want Randi to do? Locate the proper kind of scientist? Exactly what is a "high energy" scientist anyway? Would a radiologist work? If not, why not?

I think a radiologist is a good choice.

Most importantly, why do you think Randi should pay for the services of such a scientist? I'd truly appreciate an answer to these questions.

read the terms of the challenge.
All expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Neither the JREF nor JR will bear any of the costs.

Dalton has already agreed to this.

But why should there be any major expense? Just contact the physics section at the local University, ask if there's a professor there willing to perform the test. You might find one willing to perform the test for free, just out of interest, and in the cause of scientific research.

And just to establish your neutrality on this issue, do you believe for one second that if a scientist were provided that Dalton would not find some other excuse? If so, I'd like to know what in his posts has inspired such confidence.

I think Dalton is sincere in his belief, he truely thinks there is something special about his rock, and he really does want somebody qualified to take a look at it. I think his application was really about trying to get someone to tell him what's up with his rock. He's hoping that the JREF will sort out someone who can explain his trock to him.

So, if JREF finds someone who can take a detailed look at his rock and tell him about it, Dalton will go for it.

I think, however, that Randi will just make more excuses for not conductinng the test.

 

[Powa]

I think Dalton is sincere in his belief, he truely thinks there is something special about his rock, and he really does want somebody qualified to take a look at it.

I don't think so. Why else would he pass on a chance to win a million dollars? Because, that's exactly what he did. He didn't need a "high energy scientist" to see whether the ice was melting or not. He knows that, we all know that, and so do you.

I think his application was really about trying to get someone to tell him what's up with his rock. He's hoping that the JREF will sort out someone who can explain his trock to him.

So, if JREF finds someone who can take a detailed look at his rock and tell him about it, Dalton will go0 for it.

He has already had the rock tested (with no positive results). Besides, the challenge is not about explaining HOW something works, but showing IF something works. If Dalton is so sure about his rock's abilities, he should just pick up the million from JREF and go hire his own "high energy scientists" to explain how it works. All this complaining is a smoke screen from him.

 

[Peter Morris]

I don't think so. Why else would he pass on a chance to win a million dollars? Because, that's exactly what he did. He didn't need a "high energy scientist" to see whether the ice was melting or not. He knows that, we all know that, and so do you.
.

here's Dalton's reason

In my opinion, a non scientist, or a scientist with no expertise in the field of high energy radiation, could not render the necessary professional opinion that would erase all doubt from the minds of the public and myself even if such opinion was rendered in my favor. I believe such biased individual, or individual chosen by the JREF, could stack the card deck in favor of a decision for the JREF. I am only saying this is possible with a non scientist. I would hate to think this is the reason the JREF would have such requirements regarding employing a non scientist.


There you see. He wants an independent person to make sure he gets a fair test. A test conducted by a JREF associate could have the deck stacked in the JREF's favour.

But we all know that and so do you.

And Kramer has now backed down from his previous position and thus vindicated me. Why are you arguing a position that Kramer has now abandoned?

 

[Dancing David]

A) Because Randi promised it, so it is reasonable to hold him to his word.

Does that promise include the word OR? What promise was that?

B) Because it has to be done independently of Randi to ensure fairness. Someone directly connected to JREF might cheat to hold on to the $1M. Randi himself has recognised this, and promised that the test will be carried out by independent qualified persons to ensure that Randi isn't in a position to cheat.

Now, please give a reason why it SHOULDN'T be performed by a scientist. And don't come up with "because RANDI says so."

You so silly!

Science and testing does not require independance on the part of the tester nor is it ever given, the protocol and methods used are the only ones needed to demonstrate that there isn't cheating.

I know you are very smart PM, why do you spout such nonsense?

 

[Dancing David]

here's Dalton's reason

In my opinion, a non scientist, or a scientist with no expertise in the field of high energy radiation, could not render the necessary professional opinion that would erase all doubt from the minds of the public and myself even if such opinion was rendered in my favor.

That is preposterous, especialy coming from someone as smart as you.

The test is not about why the paranormal power exists, it is about the paranormal power.

Either the ice melts or the ice doesn't melt.

Simple.

I believe such biased individual, or individual chosen by the JREF, could stack the card deck in favor of a decision for the JREF. I am only saying this is possible with a non scientist.

As stated before Mr. Morris. It is the protocol and the method that proves there is no cheating. Scientists are like the roman catholic clergy, very huamn.

I would hate to think this is the reason the JREF would have such requirements regarding employing a non scientist.


There you see. He wants an independent person to make sure he gets a fair test. A test conducted by a JREF associate could have the deck stacked in the JREF's favour.

A scientific test has method and protocol, a chimp with literacy could preform the test.


This has nothing to do with DALTON dropping out, he dropped out, that is his problem, there are thousands of labs he could go to.

 

[Peter Morris]

Either the ice melts or the ice doesn't melt.

Simple.

A scientific test has method and protocol, a chimp with literacy could preform the test.

Actually, its not quite as simple as that. The claim appears to be that it slows down melting, not that it stops melting altogether.

See the other thread where Doubt discusses some of the problems with setting up a test.

You have two ice cubes, one is affected by the rock, the other is just normal, used as a control. Both of them will melt, eventually.

Applicant says, when the ordinary ice cube melts completely, the rock-affected ice cube has only melted 20%.

You think it's easy to test that claim?

You gotta ensure that the ice cubes are identical at the start of the test, using precisely measured quantities of water, make sure they are exactly the same shape, size and temperature.

Then, when you leave the ice cubes to melt, you have to make sure the conditions are identical. Is one cube closer to a light that the other? could affect melting rate. Is one of them in a draft? Does one sit slightly closer to a heat source?

There's lotsa variable you gotta account for, and make sure that they are identical in both cases.

Then, wait for the control ice cube to melt away completely, wait until there's not a single speck of ice left. Better make sure you don't go a moment too early, or a moment too late, but the exact point where the last speck of ice melts.

Then you have to carefully measure what remains of the other cube. Is it 90% left? 75%? 60%? Make sure you measure it exactly.

Even a test as simple as this requires a scientist to perform it. Somebody with research experience, and knowledge of how to account for all these problems. Doubt has admitted that he would have problems with the above.

Really, only someone with knowledge and experience of lab procedure could do this. It needs a research scientist.

 

[Tricky]

I think a radiologist is a good choice.

You really think so? Then why did not Dalton specifically request one. That would serve to illuminate more clearly what kind of energy he's talking about. And again, why should it be up to Randi to decide this? If Dalton thinks there is some kind of "energy" eminating from his rock, then he should make that part of his application. After all, these energies are not too hard to detect. Of course, that would mean he would have to know what kind of energy it was, and that is, I'm afraid, beyond him. So the best bet is to go with the effect of the energy.

read the terms of the challenge.
All expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Neither the JREF nor JR will bear any of the costs.

Dalton has already agreed to this.

But why should there be any major expense? Just contact the physics section at the local University, ask if there's a professor there willing to perform the test. You might find one willing to perform the test for free, just out of interest, and in the cause of scientific research.

If there is no "major expense" involved, then Dalton should be able to make this call himself, should he not? But at least you admit that Dalton has asked for something outside the rules, even if you suggest that the rules should be bent.

I think Dalton is sincere in his belief, he truely thinks there is something special about his rock, and he really does want somebody qualified to take a look at it. I think his application was really about trying to get someone to tell him what's up with his rock. He's hoping that the JREF will sort out someone who can explain his trock to him.

I think that is partially true. The fact that he has sent it to labs (a very dangerous thing to do if it is as deadly as he seems to think) suggests that he does believe this at some level.

But then, his evasion on having a preliminary test done suggests that he also knows, at some level, that there is nothing special about the rock. IF the rock passed the test, THEN would be the time to investigate exactly what was going on, and he would have the full support of Randi and most of the rest of us here. The fact that he is unwilling to risk that failure suggests that he is not truly as confident about his rock's properties as he would lead us to believe.

So, if JREF finds someone who can take a detailed look at his rock and tell him about it, Dalton will go for it.

He already submitted it to labs. They said nothing. There are geology departments all over the world that he could take it to. Something tells me that it is not scientific curiosity that drives Dalton, but rather a million smackeroos.

I think, however, that Randi will just make more excuses for not conductinng the test.

Except that it is DALTON who refuses to conduct the test, not Randi. Randi simply insists on going by the rules that Dalton has agreed to. Kramer has even allowed that Dalton can have his high energy scientist there. Who is making the excuses here?

 

[CFLarsen]

Why, Larsen? You admitted your own tactics. Keep telling the lie, and if it doesn't get answered it becomes the truth. You begged others to join you in repeating the lie.

It is posts like these that convinces me that you are dishonest. Knowingly dishonest.

You know that you don't have a case. Yet, you persist in this silliness. Why? Do you hate Randi? Do you have something against skeptics? Perhaps the idea that paranormal beliefs are questioned at all? Or are you merely seeking something to criticize?

You are not interested in really evaluating and investigating paranormal phenomena, that much is clear. You have an ulterior motive, I am sure of that. But I am not sure exactly what it is.

 

[Tesserat]

And here is one I just got today:
===========================================
Hi Kramer,

I just wanted to know I will get back to you guys in a few weeks.. The company that is paying for my patenting does not want me showing any internal designs until they have all the paper work sent in and secured.. Then no problems with that.. So, after they do all that I will send a email letting you know I'm ready for testing.. I will say plan for about the the first week of Oct.

So, just put me on the side for now, and I will get back with you..

Thanks,

Kirk G
=============================================

Right. Sure. Whatever.

Kramer, I wrote this before, but apparently it got lost in the crash. According to the JREF protocal you mentioned, this claim would still be considered open, and you might want to rethink posting people's correspondence with the JREF on a public board. If some one challenges the prize as unfair, it doesn't help your credibility.

 

[Peter Morris]

It is posts like these that convinces me that you are dishonest. Knowingly dishonest.

You know that you don't have a case. Yet, you persist in this silliness. Why? Do you hate Randi? Do you have something against skeptics? Perhaps the idea that paranormal beliefs are questioned at all? Or are you merely seeking something to criticize?

You are not interested in really evaluating and investigating paranormal phenomena, that much is clear. You have an ulterior motive, I am sure of that. But I am not sure exactly what it is.

And once again, we see Larsen's lies. As I pointed out earlier, I am a sceptic, but Larsen twists around. I don't fawn over Randi the way Larsen does, so I must be a believer who hates skeptics.

No, Larsen, I'm an honest sceptic who hates the dishonesty displayed by Randi and yourself. I support honest scepticism. I admire people who take an honest look and say "prove it, I'll believe it when I see it"

Since you have trouble with the concept, picture this:

A cop investigates a crime. He has a prime suspect who is obviously guilty, the cops know beyond doubt that he is the perpetrator, and have overwhelming evidence. But just to help the wheels of justice run smoothly this cop creates additional evidence. He beats up the suspect and deprives him of food water and sleep for several days until the suspect signs the confession. He tells the witnesses details that the ought to have seen, which would be a real help if they included on their statements. He forgets to inform the defence lawyer about a witness that claims he saw the suspect 100 miles away at the time. And so on. You know the sort of thing.

To people like Larsen (by analogy) this cop is a hero, a good guy acting to take down the bad guys. I, by contrast, see this cop as corrupt, dangerous and a discredit to the rest of the force. I have to condemn such actions. Of course, Larsen would claim that means I oppose ALL cops, and shows that I support criminals, or that I must be a criminal myself if I oppose this cop's actions. Larsen will excuse this cop's actions to his dying day, and be utterly unable to see what's wrong with that.

To me, Randi is like that corrupt cop planting evidence. Randi will say or do anything to discredit the paranormal. Anything at all. He tells plenty of outright lies. Randi twists people's claims around, distorts what they say, then makes a vitriolic attack on things they never said in the first place. He talks pseudoscientific gibberish to "prove" that the paranormal doesn't work. And the tests he runs are a joke that don't give claimants an honest chance of proving their abilities.

I oppose Randi because I hate dishonesty, and oppose pseudoscience. Larsen excuses dishonesty, as long as it is opposed to the paranormal. That's why he likes Randi and I don't.

By the way, Larsen, as for your absurd statement "You know that you don't have a case. Yet, you persist in this silliness" You might like to rethink that. Obviously I DO have a case. KRAMER has now reversed his position. He has decided to re-open the claim, and allow Dalton to be tested by an independent scientist after all. Seems he has decided the requesst wasn't so unreasonable at all. Larsen, my case has been vindicated. Why exactly do you continue to defend a position that KRAMER has now abandonned?

 

[Dancing David]

Actually, its not quite as simple as that. The claim appears to be that it slows down melting, not that it stops melting altogether.


-snip-
You have two ice cubes, one is affected by the rock, the other is just normal, used as a control. Both of them will melt, eventually.

-snip-
Even a test as simple as this requires a scientist to perform it. Somebody with research experience, and knowledge of how to account for all these problems. Doubt has admitted that he would have problems with the above.

Really, only someone with knowledge and experience of lab procedure could do this. It needs a research scientist.

The experience and knowledge of a research scientist are not taught in Master's level courses they are taught in middle school. I have preformed the same experiements that were preformed by Lavosier to determine the nature of burning things. It does not take an advanced degree.

It takes methods and protocol, which is what you mainly discussed.

That is the beauty of the scientific method, it is available to all,

ANYONE should be able to conduct the test , it does not require any advanced knowledge, just appropriate procedure.

 

[Peter Morris]

The experience and knowledge of a research scientist are not taught in Master's level courses they are taught in middle school. I have preformed the same experiements that were preformed by Lavosier to determine the nature of burning things. It does not take an advanced degree.

It takes methods and protocol, which is what you mainly discussed.

That is the beauty of the scientific method, it is available to all,

ANYONE should be able to conduct the test , it does not require any advanced knowledge, just appropriate procedure.

You appear to be under the impression that Lavoisier didn't do anything particularly clever. You have copied the experiment he did, and imagine that you could have done it first, if only you'd been alive then.

Rubbish. You were copying a test that had already been performed. Nothing hard about that.

Lavoisier did it for the first time. He worked out a way to perform a test that nobody had done before. That's hard.

Anyway, KRAMER has now backed away from his original position, and decided to allow a scientist to test it. Why do you continue to defend a position that KRAMER has abandonned?

 

[Tricky]

Anyway, KRAMER has now backed away from his original position, and decided to allow a scientist to test it. Why do you continue to defend a position that KRAMER has abandonned?

Just for the record, it was never KRAMER or JREF's original position that no scientist would be allowed. It was only their position that they would not provide said scientist, and that is still their position.

As for testing, Dalton has never made it clear exactly what he wanted the scientist to do, so it appears unlikely the the scientist would be part of the actual testing, but would only there as an observer. If this is not the case, then the application must be resubmitted with Dalton's new protocol request. It must be outlined very clearly what he expects the scientist to do, and what the expected results are. Of course, then it must be agreed that the claim is paranormal. If Dalton claims that the rock radiates heat in the infrared range when placed in an environment colder than the rock, that would not qualify. All objects would do that.

Of course, his actual claim is that the rock absorbs heat. This is also true of all matter if placed in an environment warmer than the temperature of the matter. The question would be then, does the rock do so to an unnatural extent?