CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

New report showing the police 2.5x more likely to use force on blacks than on white in the same situation.

How did you come up with this figure? The only 2.5x figure I see is just comparing use of force to the population at large. When they control for arrests, the difference drops to around 30%; when they control for violent arrests, the difference is about 10% in the other direction.

This is great data, and I would love to see a much larger population size examined. But the what it actually shows is not anywhere near what you are describing.

http://policingequity.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/CPE_SoJ_Race-Arrests-UoF_2016-07-08-1130.pdf
 
How did you come up with this figure? The only 2.5x figure I see is just comparing use of force to the population at large. When they control for arrests, the difference drops to around 30%; when they control for violent arrests, the difference is about 10% in the other direction.

This is great data, and I would love to see a much larger population size examined. But the what it actually shows is not anywhere near what you are describing.

http://policingequity.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/CPE_SoJ_Race-Arrests-UoF_2016-07-08-1130.pdf

You do understand how the numbers you give could be properly interpreted, yes? A likely interpretation is that force against blacks is used over 2.5 times more than necessary, very likely due to racist bias, while, when "controlled for", white people are way more nasty and thus have a 10% higher incident rate of violent arrests.

You understand how that makes the whole situation look, right?

Greetings,

Chris
 
How did you come up with this figure? The only 2.5x figure I see is just comparing use of force to the population at large. When they control for arrests, the difference drops to around 30%; when they control for violent arrests, the difference is about 10% in the other direction.

This is great data, and I would love to see a much larger population size examined. But the what it actually shows is not anywhere near what you are describing.

http://policingequity.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/CPE_SoJ_Race-Arrests-UoF_2016-07-08-1130.pdf

Of course if they are using force then they have to justify it and arrest them. Use of force vs interaction is also higher as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html
 
You do understand how the numbers you give could be properly interpreted, yes? A likely interpretation is that force against blacks is used over 2.5 times more than necessary, very likely due to racist bias, while, when "controlled for", white people are way more nasty and thus have a 10% higher incident rate of violent arrests.

So you're just ignoring the "controlled for arrests" part altogether? It's just about how many total people are in the population and we should ignore how often those people are interacting with police?
 
So you're just ignoring the "controlled for arrests" part altogether? It's just about how many total people are in the population and we should ignore how often those people are interacting with police?

Reading comprehension issues? Here it is again, maybe this time it will sink in:

According to the number from the report, and the numbers you gave it is clear that black people are affected 2.5 times more, while after the "controlled for" it becomes 10% more white people involved in violent arrests. And also, after this "controlled for" the 2.5 times suddenly become only 30%.

This can mean only thing: blacks are picked out disproportionally more, while white people obviously are more agressive and nasty, otherwise they wouldn't have the 10% lead when it comes to violent arrests.

This really should be easy to understand.

Greetings,

Chris

ETA: In fact, when the comparison is black vs. white people, it is actually 3.6 times. The 2.5 times is the overall rate, which obviously would include other non-white ethnicities:

The Center for Policing Equity report, released Friday, found the average rate of using force among blacks to be 3.6 times as high as among whites, and 2.5 times as high as the overall rate.
 
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Reading comprehension issues?
Yes, you apparently have them.

According to the number from the report, and the numbers you gave it is clear that black people are affected 2.5 times more,
Or are in areas where there are 2.5 times as many police patrols, or commit 2.5 times more crimes, or... any number of things. Hence the controls.

This can mean only thing: blacks are picked out disproportionally more, while white people obviously are more agressive and nasty, otherwise they wouldn't have the 10% lead when it comes to violent arrests.
So if blacks are arrested more often it's because they are "picked on," but if whites are beat up more often it's because they are "aggressive and nasty"? The police judgment is faulty in deciding whom to arrest but their judgment in use of force is flawless?
 
Yes, you apparently have them.


Or are in areas where there are 2.5 times as many police patrols, or commit 2.5 times more crimes, or... any number of things. Hence the controls.


So if blacks are arrested more often it's because they are "picked on," but if whites are beat up more often it's because they are "aggressive and nasty"? The police judgment is faulty in deciding whom to arrest but their judgment in use of force is flawless?

You did read the article that ponderingturtle linked to, right? Like:

... from 11 large and middle-sized cities and one urban county ... geographically diverse, and five of the 11 are racially and ethnically diverse.

The results are that blacks have a 2.5 times higher likelihood that police uses force against them, compared to the overall rate, and 3.6 times more if compared only against white people. You insist on controlling for arrests, saying that then the rate would be only 30% (o.3 times) more for arrests.

Now try to solve this: If a 2.5 times higher likelihood of force by the police againt blacks results in only 0.3 times higher arrest rates, why could that be? Given the many reports of racial bias and straight out racism by parts of the police force, are you serieously trying to deny that blacks are obviously picked on more?

One would assume that the rate of arrests should also be 2.5 times higher then, if racism was not a cause. The idea that blacks in general commit more crimes, and thus the 2.5 times number, doesn't hold up when only 0.3 times more arrests are the result. Which, in all likelihood, could be the result of police starting out with more force against blacks in the first place.

Also, given that white people have a 10% higher rate of violent arrest strongly suggest that whites are more willing to resort to violence. Plus, it can be argued that the crimes they are arrested for are more severe, thus the violence when arrested.

You see, that's the fun with statistics. Using only raw numbers the stats can be made to show something you don't expect. A much better stat would be if it lists what the reason for the actual arrests were, what the outcomes were, etc. Like, a cop forcefully approacing a black persen, and then arresting that person "just because", only to be set free shortly after without any charges can easily be seen as a misapplication of force and arrest, while arresting a white person for something like shoplifting is to be expected.

But again, if you only go by numbers, and don't have the complete data, all that can be said in this case is that blacks face a disproportionate likelihood to be harassed by the police for virtually no real reason at all, besides racism. And thus, by only using the raw numbers, i can say that whites are more likely to have violent encounters with the police when it comes to arrests, and thus are more nasty in arrest situations. After all, you brought up the figure of 10% more white people involved in violent arrests.

I'm really wondering why you pretend to not understand that. What are the blacks actually arrested for, compared to whites, that they have a 30% higher rate? How comes a 2.5 times higher rate of encounters with the police involving force suddenly evaporates to only a 0.3 times higher rate of arrests? If blacks are more criminal, one would expect the arrest rate to track tghe 2.5 times figure more closely.

Greetings,

Chris
 
One would assume that the rate of arrests should also be 2.5 times higher then, if racism was not a cause. The idea that blacks in general commit more crimes, and thus the 2.5 times number, doesn't hold up when only 0.3 times more arrests are the result.

This is not what the numbers say. Please read them again and try again.

Hint: it's "1.3 times the number of violent incidents per arrest," not, "1.3 times the number of arrests."
 
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A much better stat would be if it lists what the reason for the actual arrests were, what the outcomes were, etc.

And the reason for the initial contact, geographical location, physical size and body language of the arrestee ...

The old trope .... big guys, in the hood, with, attitude, and a gun, get taken down harder EVERY time ... as compared to 5 foot tall 100 pound accountants, holding a calculator.
 
This is not what the numbers say. Please read them again and try again.

Hint: it's "1.3 times the number of violent incidents per arrest," not, "1.3 times the number of arrests."

Here is what you wrote in post 421:

How did you come up with this figure? The only 2.5x figure I see is just comparing use of force to the population at large. When they control for arrests, the difference drops to around 30%; when they control for violent arrests, the difference is about 10% in the other direction.

If the likelihood of use of force by police in general against blacks is 2.5 times as high than against non-blacks, one would expect that, if blacks were more criminal (as some allege), that the result of force during arrest against blacks would be higher than just those 30%, since more crimes should mean more arrests. But when it comes to force in arrest situations, the use of force is only 30% higher against blacks.

It would seem extremely unlikely that black people need to be treated with force by police so often in general, but when it comes to arrests then it drops to only 0.3 times more. Unless, of course, when the general use of force against blacks is due to racism or racist biases. Which then, to me, would also explain the 30% higher number in arrest situations.

BTW, my mistake was to write in that post 2.5 times higher, when it should have been 2.5 times as high (which in turn means 1.5 times higher), and 0.3 "times more arrests" instead of "0.3 times more use of force during arrests", my bad. I'm not a native neglish speaker, but i would have hoped that the main point i was trying to make came through.

Dunno how else to make myself clear.

Greetings,

Chris
 
Here is what you wrote in post 421:



If the likelihood of use of force by police in general against blacks is 2.5 times as high than against non-blacks, one would expect that, if blacks were more criminal (as some allege), that the result of force during arrest against blacks would be higher than just those 30%, since more crimes should mean more arrests. But when it comes to force in arrest situations, the use of force is only 30% higher against blacks.

It would seem extremely unlikely that black people need to be treated with force by police so often in general, but when it comes to arrests then it drops to only 0.3 times more. Unless, of course, when the general use of force against blacks is due to racism or racist biases. Which then, to me, would also explain the 30% higher number in arrest situations.

BTW, my mistake was to write in that post 2.5 times higher, when it should have been 2.5 times as high (which in turn means 1.5 times higher), and 0.3 "times more arrests" instead of "0.3 times more use of force during arrests", my bad. I'm not a native neglish speaker, but i would have hoped that the main point i was trying to make came through.

Dunno how else to make myself clear.

Greetings,

Chris
That is consistent with other information I have seen elsewhere.

Also the rates of stopping, searching and arresting in Missouri.

Black drivers are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched, less likely to have contraband found, yet more likely to be arrested than white drivers. By a significant amount.

Ferguson was actually better than the Missouri average and its senior staff happily sent racist email jokes on their work email accounts.
 
Reading comprehension issues? Here it is again, maybe this time it will sink in:

According to the number from the report, and the numbers you gave it is clear that black people are affected 2.5 times more, while after the "controlled for" it becomes 10% more white people involved in violent arrests. And also, after this "controlled for" the 2.5 times suddenly become only 30%.

This can mean only thing: blacks are picked out disproportionally more, while white people obviously are more agressive and nasty, otherwise they wouldn't have the 10% lead when it comes to violent arrests.

This really should be easy to understand.

Greetings,

Chris

ETA: In fact, when the comparison is black vs. white people, it is actually 3.6 times. The 2.5 times is the overall rate, which obviously would include other non-white ethnicities:

I've found one of the articles that I was referring to earlier:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...c7a404-b3c5-11e5-a76a-0b5145e8679a_story.html

Over the past year, The Post found that the vast majority of those shot and killed by police were armed and half of them were white. Still, police killed blacks at three times the rate of whites when adjusted for the populations where these shootings occurred. And although black men represent 6 percent of the U.S. population, they made up nearly 40 percent of those who were killed while unarmed.

I ETA:read interpret that as the Police will shoot armed people "on merit" but tend to have a lower threshold for shooting unarmed ETA:black people ETA:than for shooting unarmed white people .

And the DoJ report into policing in Ferguson which concluded that there was a disproportionate use of force against blacks.

https://www.justice.gov/sites/defau...5/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf

Some of the double standards are pretty astounding.

There is no reason to think that Ferguson PD was a particular outlier - its disparity index for vehicular searches was better than the average for Missouri

https://ago.mo.gov/home/vehicle-stops-report?lea=161
 
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The "good" cops are the vast majority of the police force who are not the rare "bad apples" what do the actual racist murdering. Of course, the meaning of the bad apple metaphor - that as long as there's a single bad apple remaining, there are no good apples - is the precise opposite of what they want it to mean, but that's the rhetoric.


Yes, those are interesting and important questions. I don't know what might work, only that nothing we've tried so far has.

The vast majority of cops routinely participate in criminal conspiracies to protect the bad cops that commit crimes against the citizenry. That is the absolute truth........there are very few good cops by any reasonable definition of the word.
 
The vast majority of cops routinely participate in criminal conspiracies to protect the bad cops that commit crimes against the citizenry. That is the absolute truth........there are very few good cops by any reasonable definition of the word.

That all depends on if you consider covering up for bad cops making them bad cops.

Reminds me of a recent conversation my wife had, the woman was defending her officer husband but saying he couldn't do anything as he would lose his job and career and the family and his children couldn't afford that. But didn't want to see that this was exactly the thing people are complaining about.
 
That all depends on if you consider covering up for bad cops making them bad cops.

Reminds me of a recent conversation my wife had, the woman was defending her officer husband but saying he couldn't do anything as he would lose his job and career and the family and his children couldn't afford that. But didn't want to see that this was exactly the thing people are complaining about.

It's actually quite sad that the police culture is at a point where doing the right thing gets punished that way. That's why i think that, if during an external investigation it turns out that someone helped to cover up, that person should also be fired without any pension, etc. Possibly go to jail as well, depending on the severity of what was covered up.

There must be a strong incentive to do the right thing, a possible punishment that has at least the same consequences (loosing the job and career) if failing to do so. Preferably an even higher punishment (jail time, etc.).

Same goes for racism, IMHO. Someone who is unable to treat all people the same is simply unfit for the service and needs to be removed as quickly as possible.

Greetings,

Chris
 
That all depends on if you consider covering up for bad cops making them bad cops.

Reminds me of a recent conversation my wife had, the woman was defending her officer husband but saying he couldn't do anything as he would lose his job and career and the family and his children couldn't afford that. But didn't want to see that this was exactly the thing people are complaining about.

Do I consider cops that routinely (virtually every day) covering for other cops that commit crimes against citizens bad cops? Yes.

And by that standard, the overwhelming majority of cops are bad. And we are the only first world nation with this problem to this degree.
 
If the likelihood of use of force by police in general against blacks is 2.5 times as high than against non-blacks, one would expect that, if blacks were more criminal (as some allege), that the result of force during arrest against blacks would be higher than just those 30%, since more crimes should mean more arrests.
If the force per population is 2.5 times as high, and the force per arrest is only 1.3 times as high, what does that say about the arrest per population? The numbers clearly do reflect a higher arrest rate for blacks. Which, in your narrative, means blacks are more criminal. In the BLM narrative it means cops are racist.

BTW, my mistake was to write in that post 2.5 times higher, when it should have been 2.5 times as high (which in turn means 1.5 times higher), and 0.3 "times more arrests" instead of "0.3 times more use of force during arrests", my bad. I'm not a native neglish speaker, but i would have hoped that the main point i was trying to make came through.
As a non-native speaker, it is probably not wise for you to question the reading comprehension of others when conversing in English.

Dunno how else to make myself clear.
That is apparent.
 

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