CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

I would suggest that you do not announce that you have a gun. Don't even announce that you have a permit to carry a gun. Once the officer is at your window, you tell him you are going to reach for your ID. Hand the officer your Driver license and permit at the same time. Let him digest that. He will then ask if you are carrying. Which at that time you tell him, yes I am. Then do exactly what he asks you to do.
By telling him you have a gun or permit, then reaching for something, he is going to get very nervous. Best to not do that.
 
Good for you. Do you think its acceptable to be shot if you reach for your ID too quickly? I've been pulled over exactly once; I was nervous and jumpy as hell and couldn't find my insurance in my wallet. Glad the cop didn't assume I had a gun in the center console when I opened it fishing for it (ETA: which is actually perfectly legal here without a license) . I recall him looking a bit nervous when I did though.

I am from England. i have been stopped once in a hire car in Arizona. I probably did all the things I was not supposed to do. So I guess i am lucky not to be shot. I definitely undid my seat belt, I did not keep my hands on the wheel. I probably tried to get out of the car. I probably tried to take the car documents out of the glove box, and went for my handbag for my passport (I suspect when asked for my photo id he did not expect a British passport. Luckily the police officer spoke English. he also did answer my question about how you decide who goes first at a four way stop sign, though I suspect he thought I was taking the piss. Cleary hire cars should have printed instructions on what to do if stopped by the police, especially for us foreigners.
 
I would suggest that you do not announce that you have a gun.

This gets confusing. 2 years ago Sean Hannity, knowing police treat white and black people the exact same, told people how to not get shot by the police and in his imaginary experiences of being pulled over the very first thing you needed to do was tell the officer you had a gun. Now it is the opposite.
 
This gets confusing. 2 years ago Sean Hannity, knowing police treat white and black people the exact same, told people how to not get shot by the police and in his imaginary experiences of being pulled over the very first thing you needed to do was tell the officer you had a gun. Now it is the opposite.

Don't forget, he also counseled to get out of the car and lift your shirt to show where the gun is. I'm sure that everyone agrees that cops would just love to have a bunch of black guys getting out of cars and exposing guns as soon as they could at every traffic stop.
 
Indeed.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf







In comparison, the smallest police force in the UK is the Civil Nuclear Constabulary with 750 officers and an obvious highly specialised role.

There are 45 territorial police forces in the UK and 3 special police forces (including the aforementioned Civil Nuclear Constabulary).

There have been discussions as to whether some of these territorial forces are too small for efficiencies of scale.

A 5-person police force lacks the oversight that a larger one could have. It also seems an environment that could be conducive for small-scale corruption.

What about Kew?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kew_Constabulary

Though as far as I know their armed response unit carries secateurs not firearms.

Like their hats!
http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/kew-constabulary-constables/
 
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This gets confusing. 2 years ago Sean Hannity, knowing police treat white and black people the exact same, told people how to not get shot by the police and in his imaginary experiences of being pulled over the very first thing you needed to do was tell the officer you had a gun. Now it is the opposite.

Feel free to do whatever Mr. Hannity suggests. I'll be following the advice of a professional firearms instructor.
 
Feel free to do whatever Mr. Hannity suggests. I'll be following the advice of a professional firearms instructor.

In my 65 long years in Australia I've never needed the advice of a firearms instructor. This is something US citizens might want to reflect on.
 
In my 65 long years in Australia I've never needed the advice of a firearms instructor. This is something US citizens might want to reflect on.

Getting shot by an officer during s traffic stop is also not on my mind either. This is the calm we breathe.
 
I would suggest that you do not announce that you have a gun. Don't even announce that you have a permit to carry a gun. Once the officer is at your window, you tell him you are going to reach for your ID. Hand the officer your Driver license and permit at the same time. Let him digest that. He will then ask if you are carrying. Which at that time you tell him, yes I am. Then do exactly what he asks you to do.
By telling him you have a gun or permit, then reaching for something, he is going to get very nervous. Best to not do that.

Yes. Did you watch the video I posted (post 21)?
 
None, at all?

We're talking about, to the best of our knowledge, a law abiding citizen who needlessly died in a moment of confusion and you can find no sympathy for him?

If one discounts the racial motive and is a CCW holder then, for the sake of one's own sanity, it's vitally important to believe that this was all the fault of the deceased. A belief that it could happen to anyone who doesn't make a mistake would lead to some extremely nervy traffic stops later in the CCW holders life.
 
Since data on unarmed men killed by cops is not kept, where do you recommend we look?


Hummm...

I like how the police are now to be dealt with like vicious dogs.

Don't make any sudden moves. Don't assume a posture that could be interpreted as agressive. Don't express fear, they can sense that.

Failing any of that, and it's your fault if you get bit.

I live in Canada, where we don't have this police problem, and I'm white, but I wouldn't do any of that.
 
But what did Mr. Jones do wrong to cause this to happen? He really should have done things differently and not gotten shot I am sure. Just go back to the thread here from the time that happened.

[URL="http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283366]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283366[/URL]

I don't see anybody saying that (admittedly, I only read through the first page). Everybody in that thread seems to be agreeing that the cop screwed up and panicked and should be in jail.

So why are you implying that people were blaming Jones for the incident or defending the cop? I don't see any of that.
 
I would suggest that you do not announce that you have a gun. Don't even announce that you have a permit to carry a gun. Once the officer is at your window, you tell him you are going to reach for your ID. Hand the officer your Driver license and permit at the same time. Let him digest that. He will then ask if you are carrying. Which at that time you tell him, yes I am. Then do exactly what he asks you to do.
By telling him you have a gun or permit, then reaching for something, he is going to get very nervous. Best to not do that.

Here, CCW instructors give the opposite advice - likely because state law requires that you announce your firearm promptly if you are pulled over and keep your hands in plain sight at all times. We have always done this without incident. Then again, we also don't reach for ID when we are told not to.
 
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Feel free to do whatever Mr. Hannity suggests. I'll be following the advice of a professional firearms instructor.

The instructor is absolutely correct, but that approach does come with it's own set of unintended consequences.

In California, CC regulations vary by county, but it's pretty much universal that a licensed carrier must inform the LEO that s/he is carrying.

There has been a bit of confusion on the part of individual LEO's about when they should be informed by the individual they're interacting with, and I'm aware of more than one incident where a licensed carrier did pretty much exactly what the instructor advised only to find themselves in custody (temporarily) for not informing the officer at the onset of the encounter - in one incident, an individual was approached by an officer responding to a suspicious person call (which the contactee wasn't), approached the licensed carrier and began questioning the individual. According to the carrier, he attempted multiple times to inform the officer he was carrying only to be told to shut up, and when the contact went to a Terry search the officer discovered the carry gun, immediately took down the carrier and commenced subduing him the old fashioned way - witness accounts described the officer striking the carrier with his baton while dragging him by his hair towards the patrol unit.

End result: cash settlement, all charges dropped, medical bills paid, firearm returned - in exchange - no public civil suit filed.

The officer in question in the above incident was eventually fired from his agency, not for excessive force or other incidents involving his poor decision making but for totaling his patrol unit, driving in an area out of his departments jurisdiction. No assistance call, no pursuit call, -0- reason to be where he was doing what he was. Pretty clear to observers that he was using that particular road for what many folks used it for, performance driving on a beautifully curved stretch of pavement.
 
Here, CCW instructors give the opposite advice - likely because state law requires that you announce your firearm promptly if you are pulled over and keep your hands in plain sight at all times. We have always done this without incident. Then again, we also don't reach for ID when we are told not to.

I think the problem here may be the semantics -- it depends on how it's taught (or what people take away from their training). You should declare that you have the CCW permit first, then let the officer lead the question to if you have a weapon ready at hand. Not say "I have a weapon" and begin any kind of hand motion. Perhaps something as standard as the Miranda rights.
 
I think the problem here may be the semantics -- it depends on how it's taught (or what people take away from their training). You should declare that you have the CCW permit first, then let the officer lead the question to if you have a weapon ready at hand. Not say "I have a weapon" and begin any kind of hand motion.

Yes, exactly right. If the cop comes to the window and immediately asks for identification, they are given the CCW license first. If the cop asks any questions, the first words in reply are "I have a permit to carry."
 

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