Catholics Hho Voted For Obama Should Confess

[madurobob]

I'm sure its nothing new, but this story today bugged me:

Parishioners of St. Joseph's Catholic Church in Modesto have been told they should consider going to confession if they voted for Barack Obama, because of the president-elect's position condoning abortion.

"If you are one of the 54 percent of Catholics who voted for a pro-abortion candidate, you were clear on his position and you knew the gravity of the question, I urge you to go to confession before receiving communion. Don't risk losing your state of grace by receiving sacrilegiously," the Rev. Joseph Illo, pastor of St. Joseph's, wrote in a letter dated Nov. 21.

Good grief. So, I'm to believe that this god cat is so opposed to an Obama presidency that any informed catholic who voted for him risks eternal damnation? And come to think of it, how did Obama win against the will of an omnipotent being?

Crikey. Its almost as if they're trying to drive people away from the church. I think that's really what bugged me. Its not another religious nut being nutty - its piss-poor marketing!

(ETA: good to see I'm still batting 1000 with misspellings in thread titles!)

 

[Gregory]

The last time a Catholic priest did something like this, he got smacked down by his superiors.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Good grief. So, I'm to believe that this god cat is so opposed to an Obama presidency that any informed catholic who voted for him risks eternal damnation? And come to think of it, how did Obama win against the will of an omnipotent being?

Obviously, God doesn't mess with trivial things like elections, else an awful lot of folks would not hold office.

There was a previous thread on this, perhaps in the Politics forum.

The priest is on slightly solid ground, and slightly shaky ground. Since any president's platform has multiple planks to it, a Catholic could vote for Obama, particularly if the only one of twenty planks they didn't like was his abortion stance. Presidential elections are not single issue events, except to those vacant of wit. One hopes the padre in question grasps this.

From his own book: render unto Caesar, etc. The election is of the world, and thus Caesar's. If a Catholic is an advocate of abortion, chances are he or she needs to make peace with the Church on this one, as there are some issues. The Priest is right, doctrinally, on that one.

Crikey. Its almost as if they're trying to drive people away from the church. I think that's really what bugged me. Its not another religious nut being nutty - its piss-poor marketing!

My take on this story is that he is selling his message to the already converted. No True Catholic votes for Obama, kilts and all. The Democratic Catholics who objected to this are on very solid ground.

In short, he is preaching to a small part of the choir.

Your martini will stand you in good stead.

DR

 

[madurobob]

No, he is selling his message to the already converted.

In short, he is preaching to the choir.

Yep, I considered that angle. However he clearly stated in his letter that a majority of Catholics voted in a way that *might* require confession to save their "state of grace". Chastising the majority in your private organization might not be the best move politically.

Your martini will stand you in good stead.

DR

Hasn't let me down yet, tho once in a rare while has cause me kneel and bow my head and do penance for over indulgence

 

[Darth Rotor]

Yep, I considered that angle. However he clearly stated in his letter that a majority of Catholics voted in a way that *might* require confession to save their "state of grace". Chastising the majority in your private organization might not be the best move politically.


Hasn't let me down yet, tho once in a rare while has cause me kneel and bow my head and do penance for over indulgence

My apologies for the ETA: I amended to "preaching to a small part of the choir" and we cross posted.

I'll use Preview next time. My bad.

DR

 

[Gestahl]

Yeah, they should have voted for the party full of Baptists who think the Pope is the Antichrist and they are all going to hell...

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Parishioners of St. Joseph's Catholic Church in Modesto have been told they should consider going to confession if they voted for Barack Obama, because of the president-elect's position condoning abortion.

Again I challenge anyone to cite the book, chapter and verse of God's condemnation of abortion.

 

[madurobob]

Yeah, they should have voted for the party full of Baptists who think the Pope is the Antichrist and they are all going to hell...

The League of the South has a party now?

 

[madurobob]

Again I challenge anyone to cite the book, chapter and verse of God's condemnation of abortion.

[Devilsadvocate]Deuteronomy 5:17[/Devilsadvocate]

I mean, that's really what its all about, isn't it? Not that Christians in general fully adhere to that rule in all other aspects of life. But, that's another debate.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Again I challenge anyone to cite the book, chapter and verse of God's condemnation of abortion.

Exodus 20:13. How much clearer could he be?

 

[linusrichard]

[Devilsadvocate]Deuteronomy 5:17[/Devilsadvocate]

I mean, that's really what its all about, isn't it? Not that Christians in general fully adhere to that rule in all other aspects of life. But, that's another debate.

Exodus 20:13. How much clearer could he be?

So what am I supposed to conclude when I read Exodus 20:13, Exodus 21:12, and Exodus 21:22 together?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

So what am I supposed to conclude when I read Exodus 20:13, Exodus 21:12, and Exodus 21:22 together?

And what about 24? Not much animal sacrifice taking place at any of my local churches either.

 

[Arthur Denton]

So what am I supposed to conclude when I read Exodus 20:13, Exodus 21:12, and Exodus 21:22 together?

Thou shall conclude that thou art confused. Thy holy scriptures never lieth to thee.

 

[linusrichard]

Thou shall conclude that thou art confused. Thy holy scriptures never lieth to thee.

There's nothing confusing about it. Kill a person, be put to death. "Kill" a fetus, pay a fine. The only way these make sense together is if the authors of Exodus don't actually consider a fetus to be a person.

 

[madurobob]

So what am I supposed to conclude when I read Exodus 20:13, Exodus 21:12, and Exodus 21:22 together?

Doesn't matter. The challenge was to cite the book, chapter and verse of God's condemnation of abortion. That was done. That God then goes on to contradict himself is not apropos.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

[Devilsadvocate]Deuteronomy 5:17[/Devilsadvocate]

Exodus 20:13.

{thou shalt not murder/kill}

'Murder' and 'killing' needs further definition. The folks of old evidently didn't have morals even approaching those of today. I would say, for example, that killing someone for gathering sticks on the Sabbath is unacceptable, the Isrealites clearly felt otherwise.

Nowhere in the Holy Book does it say abortion is wrong. It does say that you should be fined, as opposed to killed, if bringing about a miscarriage through violence, though, which suggests that fetuses weren't regarded as humans.

Is there a Bible scholar here (Piggy?) who can shed light on what the attitude on abortion was among these people in those days? Think I'll PM him/her.

 

[Seismosaurus]

Isn't the bible's "Thou shalt not kill" literally translated as "Thou shalt not murder"?

If so, where does the bible proclaim abortion to be murder?

 

[linusrichard]

Doesn't matter. The challenge was to cite the book, chapter and verse of God's condemnation of abortion. That was done. That God then goes on to contradict himself is not apropos.

I don't see a contradiction. According to Exodus, causing a miscarriage isn't killing. If causing a miscarriage isn't killing, then "Thou shalt not kill" can't be a condemnation of abortion. So we still need book, chapter, and verse of God's condemnation of abortion.

 

[madurobob]

'Murder' and 'killing' needs further definition. The folks of old evidently didn't have morals even approaching those of today. I would say, for example, that killing someone for gathering sticks on the Sabbath is unacceptable, the Isrealites clearly felt otherwise.

Nowhere in the Holy Book does it say abortion is wrong. It does say that you should be fined, as opposed to killed, if bringing about a miscarriage through violence, though, which suggests that fetuses weren't regarded as humans.

Is there a Bible scholar here (Piggy?) who can shed light on what the attitude on abortion was among these people in those days? Think I'll PM him/her.

I more or less agree with you. But, the verses about fines resulting from accidental violence to a pregnant woman seem to me to speak more to misogyny than views of fetuses. But certainly in a time when infant mortality was far higher than today it makes sense that people would be hesitant to equate a fetus with full-fledged human life (but the fine does indicate some value for the fetus, no?). These days its much easier to see ending a perfectly healthy pregnancy as "murder" that is forbidden in the 10 commandments.

Anyway, as an atheist and avid abortion rights supporter I am surely the wrong person to debate this line of reasoning.

 

[madurobob]

Isn't the bible's "Thou shalt not kill" literally translated as "Thou shalt not murder"?

If so, where does the bible proclaim abortion to be murder?

Where does the bible address abortion at all?