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Castro has passed on

A government representative of itself then?
Not what I said. Persons or organisations acquire the power legally to form a government, in consequence of having more votes than others in an election. But you are well aware that's what I meant.
Yes, by someone who clearly had the power base to do so.
No, you mean the power to do so, and that power was mainly armed soldiers and sailors. Three years later the sailors too rebelled, but they didn't have an adequate "power base", and were defeated.
Power in Russia wasn't with the Constituent Assembly but with the Soviets.
By your own testimony that is absurd
The Bolsheviks had been maneuvering in the Soviets long before they eventually destroyed them outright. IIRC things like manipulating the number of votes given to each Soviet in higher assemblies so as to favour the Soviets they controlled (mostly in industrial urban areas, Petrograd for example).
If the Bolsheviks could do that, it was they, and not the Soviets, who held power.
 
Not what I said.

It's exactly what you said.

1. The government is representative of a specific set of persons or organizations chosen in a certain manner.

2. The government consists of the specific set of persons or organizations chosen in that manner.

Ergo, the government is representative of itself.
 
Nope. That's exactly what it means. Every person acts rationally[*] and the solution is Pareto-efficient.
[*] "rational" in the economic sense, not to be confused with "rational" as "rational thinking".

That is, indeed, a less frequent use of the term, requiring the modifier. From the wiki:
However, the result only holds under the restrictive assumptions necessary for the proof (markets exist for all possible goods so there are no externalities, all markets are in full equilibrium, markets are perfectly competitive, transaction costs are negligible, and market participants have perfect information).
That's one fat model gaze right there. It seems to be reliant really more on the concept of conserving the status quo, as by definition what is sought is no net negative change for any player:
Pareto efficiency does not require an equitable distribution of wealth. An economy in which the wealthy hold the vast majority of resources can be Pareto efficient.

...

Yes, although it's not called "needs" which must be met but (effective) "demand". In the example I gave Charlie "needs" the medication more than Bob because he puts more money behind it - that is how "needs" are measured relatively to eachother in their market belief system.

However, in practice and as noted earlier, one may indeed shape the field of play in order to avoid such outcomes, even while generally having a market economy. In this case, public health care with access to medicine not reliant on ability to pay extra. The only reason I say "pay extra" and not "pay" is that the truth and reality is, some governments can go broke and need to charge a fixed fee. It's not always possible to subsidize fully, albeit this could be the goal.

The downside to simply fixing the market is that the choice of winners and losers in general falls into fewer hands, and leaves other hands with no choice. Centralized planning relies on a form of foresight and prescience that can best be achieved precisely by placing very many bets, not fewer.
 
It's exactly what you said.

1. The government is representative of a specific set of persons or organizations chosen in a certain manner.

2. The government consists of the specific set of persons or organizations chosen in that manner.

Ergo, the government is representative of itself.
Nonsense. Let's try again.

1. The government is representative consists of a specific set of persons or organizations chosen in a certain manner by ballot of the electorate

2. Delete

Ergo, the government is representative of a plurality or majority of the electorate.
 
That is, indeed, a less frequent use of the term, requiring the modifier.

No it isn't. It's your definition: distribute limited resources to efficiently fulfill needs. Distributing a unit of medication to fulfill a 100.01$ need rather than a 100$ need is more efficient, since using the same limited resources you've fulfilled a greater need. Think of it as an optimization problem, which requires a way to measure how much "need" is fulfilled.

That's one fat model gaze right there. It seems to be reliant really more on the concept of conserving the status quo, as by definition what is sought is no net negative change for any player:

Reminds me of a comic - though not exactly Pareto-efficiency it's related (replace "happiest" with "richest") and the solution at each step is indeed Pareto-efficient.

However, in practice and as noted earlier, one may indeed shape the field of play in order to avoid such outcomes, even while generally having a market economy.

No you can't, a market economy is designed to produce that outcome by defining "need" as "how much money you're willing to throw at it". You can choose to distribute resources other than through a market, like you say for medication, but the resources distributed through the market will keep having this property.

Take for examples jackets, Alice has an extra jacket, Bob is homeless and really needs a jacket but only has 5$ for it, and rich Charlie has an entire closet full of jackets and is willing to pay 100$ for another jacket. Then the market solution is Alice selling the jacket to Charlie for 5.01$ and Bob remaining on the streets without a jacket but with 5$ in his hands. The limited resource, the jacket, was distributed to fulfill a 5.01$ need rather than a 5$ need - which is more efficient in the model's own terms.

You may believe that medication is more important than jackets and may decide to keep jackets under market distribution, but that's another question than that you could avoid such outcomes under a market economy.

The downside to simply fixing the market is that the choice of winners and losers in general falls into fewer hands, and leaves other hands with no choice. Centralized planning relies on a form of foresight and prescience that can best be achieved precisely by placing very many bets, not fewer.

This is a false dichotomy, between "market economy" and "central planning". But even so, centralized planning does not require more foresight and prescience than the current market system. Corporations are internally command economies after all.
 
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Nonsense. Let's try again.

Yet this is exactly what you said:
Representative of the persons or organisations chosen by voters at an election.

1. The government is representative consists of a specific set of persons or organizations chosen in a certain manner by ballot of the electorate

2. Delete

Ergo, the government is representative of a plurality or majority of the electorate.

That doesn't follow. And if you remove the incorrect "ergo" it becomes an assertion, so do you have evidence for this? How exactly do you measure what something is "representative" of?
 
That doesn't follow.
Yes it does. These expressions mean the same thing.

Representative of the persons or organisations chosen by voters at an election.

consists of a specific set of persons or organizations chosen by ballot of the electorate​
How exactly do you measure what something is "representative" of?
By counting votes, and appointing as government the party or other body that received most of the votes of the electorate in question. As I stated, there may be other definitions of representative, but since the Bolsheviks didn't apply any of them, it's pointless discussing them in this context.
 
uppose there are 3 people, Alice, Bob, and Charlie. Alice has some medication at surplus which she doesn't need anymore. Bob needs the medication to survive and has 100$ to spend. Charlie is a dick and wants to see Bob die, he's rich and has 1000$ to spend. Then the efficient distribution of resources, according to this particular definition of "efficient", is that Alice gives the medication to Charlie for 100.01$ (the so-called "market clearing price") and Bob dies.

If I were in Alice's position, I'd give Bob the medication. What would you do in her place?

In your scenario, Alice is a bigger jerk than Charlie. Charlie at least has some reason to want Bob to die, she lets him die for a penny. What is the mechanism that makes 2/3 of the population homicidal jerks? Is Bob also a jerk and is that why both Alice and Charlie want him dead?

Who is the supplier of the medicine? Why can't Bob get it from them?

What is the mechanism that prevents Alice from forgoing a penny in profit and selling the medicine to Bob at a price he can afford?
 
Yes it does. These expressions mean the same thing.

Representative of the persons or organisations chosen by voters at an election.

consists of a specific set of persons or organizations chosen by ballot of the electorate​

1. The government is representative of {the persons or organizations chosen by voters at an election}

2. {The government} consists of {the persons or organizations chosen by voters at an election}

2b: {The government} is {the persons or organizations chosen by voters at an election}

Substituting 2b into 1: The government is representative of {the government}

Rewriting: The government is representative of itself.

By counting votes, and appointing as government the party or other body that received most of the votes of the electorate in question.

That's an odd definition of "representative".

As I stated, there may be other definitions of representative, but since the Bolsheviks didn't apply any of them, it's pointless discussing them in this context.

The discussion isn't about the Bolsheviks but your notion of "representative government" - or at least this tangent of the discussion isn't.
 
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If I were in Alice's position, I'd give Bob the medication. What would you do in her place?

It's not about what you would do in Alice's position, but what is defined as "efficient" in context of efficiency of market allocation of resources.
 
It's not about what you would do in Alice's position, but what is defined as "efficient" in context of efficiency of market allocation of resources.
If it's just three people, then it's not about some arbitrary definition of "efficiency", it's about the choices made by three people.

If it's not about three people, if it's really a metaphor describing society, then there is no "Charlie" who wants people to die just because he's a jerk. There would also be a drug supplier and many more options for Bob.

How about using real world examples instead of nonsense fantasy?
 
If it's just three people, then it's not about some arbitrary definition of "efficiency", it's about the choices made by three people.

It's not about the choices made by three people but about market allocation of resources.

If it's not about three people, if it's really a metaphor describing society, then there is no "Charlie" who wants people to die just because he's a jerk.

Of course there are.

Before you're going to respond to this, think and then read the spoiler:
What is described is a market allocation of resources, it has nothing to do with Charlie's "personal evilness". In the analogy Alice, Bob and Charlie wouldn't even know eachother, they are just each acting "rationally" in a market-based resource distribution scheme.


How about using real world examples instead of nonsense fantasy?

Wait a second, I thought libertarians favoured market allocation of resources by using this sort of reasoning? And you didn't answer the question about whether libertarians would favour nationalization of the railways.
 
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It's not about the choices made by three people but about market allocation of resources.



Of course there are.

Before you're going to respond to this, think and then read the spoiler:
What is described is a market allocation of resources, it has nothing to do with Charlie's "personal evilness". In the analogy Alice, Bob and Charlie wouldn't even know eachother, they are just each acting "rationally" in a market-based resource distribution scheme.




Wait a second, I thought libertarians favoured market allocation of resources by using this sort of reasoning? And you didn't answer the question about whether libertarians would favour nationalization of the railways.

Are you confused into thinking the United States is a libertarian society?
 
I did not say that the US is a libertarian society, where are you even getting this from?
Because you cited a US study to support your claim about a hypothetical libertarian society.

If the US is not a libertarian society, of what value is the study?
 
Because you cited a US study to support your claim about a hypothetical libertarian society.

I did not make a claim about a hypothetical libertarian society, I - quite thoroughly - refuted your claim that if my example did describe market allocation of resources in a real society there wouldn't be any "Charlie".

If the US is not a libertarian society, of what value is the study?

See above, it refutes your claim about "there wouldn't be any Charlie".
 
Let utility be logarithmic in money - the more money you have the less useful each next dollar becomes. Then a market allocation scheme can be expected to distribute resources such that the slightest whim[*] of a rich person is considered to be a greater "need" to be fulfilled than a life-or-death need of a poor person. And this is plainly observed as well, it seems to work exactly as designed.

The question is, why would libertarians think that is actually a good idea to be promoted even further?

* slightest whim vs life-or-death need compared by utility
 
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Let utility be logarithmic in money - the more money you have the less useful each next dollar becomes. Then a market allocation scheme can be expected to distribute resources such that the slightest whim
[*] of a rich person is considered to be a greater "need" to be fulfilled than a life-or-death need of a poor person. And this is plainly observed as well, it seems to work exactly as designed.

The question is, why would libertarians think that is actually a good idea to be promoted even further?

* slightest whim vs life-or-death need compared by utility
You're treating it like a fixed resource, but a drug is something that can be manufactured. If it has such appeal that wealthy people want to buy it just for fun and it can save lives, then the manufacturer has powerful incentive to produce huge quantities.
 
You're treating it like a fixed resource, but a drug is something that can be manufactured.

This is irrelevant, at each point in time there is only a finite amount of it "on the market" and its allocation has the properties described.

If it has such appeal that wealthy people want to buy it just for fun and it can save lives, then the manufacturer has powerful incentive to produce huge quantities.

This doesn't follow.
 
This doesn't follow.

Yes, actually, it does. Simple supply and demand. If companies can make a profit selling X drugs at price Y, then they would jump at the chance to sell 2X drugs at price Y. That doesn't generally happen, because as demand is met, marginal demand decreases and price goes down.

In your scenario, the drug seller would be willing to sell for $100. The price cannot go below $100 until Bob gets his medicine. Since this $100 floor is above what the drug maker can make a profit at (otherwise Bob is screwed no matter what Charlie does), Bob will get his drugs. The drug company will keep churning out drugs for $100.01 until Charlie either runs out of money or decides that he doesn't want to waste more of it trying to keep Bob from getting any. The drug company will then make more drugs and sell it to Bob at $100.
 
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