Capital punishment

[roger]

Should I start listing all the people who cost society money and where it would be cheaper if they were dead?

Yes, please.

But allow me to start the list.

1. 80yo terminal cancer patient with no health insurance in the US.
2. People that speed too fast around modestly sharp mountain curves
3. People that jump off mid-rise buildings
4. etc.

The point being is we make this cost determination in a lot of our government spending. We don't put up guardrails and install 10ft shoulders on every road -it's too expensive. That costs some lives. We don't do bacteria culture tests on every piece of beef sold - it'd be too expensive. That costs lives. We don't install 12ft tall unclimbable fences and install unbreakable windows on every government building and bridge - it's too expensive. That costs lives. We don't have one police officer for every driver to ensure no one ever exceeds the speed limit - it's too expensive. That costs lives.

I'm not a huge fan of the death penalty, but we surely do make money vs life decisions every day. I don't see why the death penalty should be exempt from that sort of determination (if we decide we want it). Given we have limited funds, I'd rather we'd release all nonviolent drug offenders, and spend the money on, well, this, but that's segueing into another topic.

 

[Cainkane1]

I do have to wonder if its really true that life in jail really is worse than the death penalty. Not saying it isn't, but really, how exactly do you measure "no freedom ever" against "your existence is terminated"? And if life in prison really were so much more worse than the death penalty, why haven't more convicts committed suicide?


Any idea what he did to have parole taken away? If he were wrongly blamed for something in prison, that's one thing. But if he actually was the instigator to something in prison, maybe he's handling his incarceration better than you seem to think.

some convicts do commit suicide. Many of them are unstable to begin with and suicide is common. Most people don't do themselves in not because they enjoy being where they are but they just don't want to do it. maybe they are afraid to do it who knows?

If you go to Georgia inmate locaters you may see why Dobbs lost his chance for parole. He has a tattoo of Satan on his neck. He didn't have it when he went into prison and having tattoos done in prison is a violation of prison rules.

Randy Dobbs is a cheap shot artist. He was in and out of juvenile custody for unprovoked assaults usually using a weapon such as a club to strike his victims from behind. One boy had a severe concussion and Dobbs did it for no apparent reason. He may have done this in prison. I don't know. I know a lot about this punk because he lived here in my home town. The police hated him.

His parents had him in therapy. He went to a psychiatrist on a monthly basis. His parents tried to make him happy but he enjoyed inflicting pain on others and he did what he liked to do.

Randys older brothers life was ruined at least until he got out of highschool. He was in one fight after another. The other students tormented him about his brothers cowardly and unprovoked murder.

I hope he never gets out of prison. He can't rehabilitate because he likes himself the way he is. Who knows? He may not even want to get out.

 

[Cainkane1]

Depends on the fate... you might want to ask him. If prison is all you ever know, and for him it more or less is, your expectations might be a bit different. Prison food is only bad if you have something better to compare it with.

His life might be a nightmare. Or he might be having a splendid time playing basketball on the yard and reading Nietzsche in his cell.

I think his parole issue is that he has two life sentences making it as far as I can tell thirty years to parole eligibility so his profile on the Georgia DOC website lists no estimated parole date.

What kind of input can Randy put into a conversation among inmates when they discuss their sexual exploits before they got in trouble and their expectations when they get out? I'm sure he was a virgin when he was arrested.

 

[Cainkane1]

Depends on the fate... you might want to ask him. If prison is all you ever know, and for him it more or less is, your expectations might be a bit different. Prison food is only bad if you have something better to compare it with.

His life might be a nightmare. Or he might be having a splendid time playing basketball on the yard and reading Nietzsche in his cell.

I think his parole issue is that he has two life sentences making it as far as I can tell thirty years to parole eligibility so his profile on the Georgia DOC website lists no estimated parole date.

Theres another guy I used to know personally when I was in highschool who killed someone in 1979. His name is Robert Strickland and he was but is no longer eligible for parole. I don't know about other states in the USA but here in Georgia if you want parole you have to adhere strickly to the rules. He's also in Georgia Inmate locaters if you want to look him up too.

 

[Suddenly]

What kind of input can Randy put into a conversation among inmates when they discuss their sexual exploits before they got in trouble and their expectations when they get out? I'm sure he was a virgin when he was arrested.

Why? In the context of the life he seemed to be leading assuming he was a virgin at 14 isn't all that sound. Even so, how one teen sexual encounter is supposed to make a lifetime of prison somehow significantly less awful is unclear to me.

 

[Suddenly]

Theres another guy I used to know personally when I was in highschool who killed someone in 1979. His name is Robert Strickland and he was but is no longer eligible for parole. I don't know about other states in the USA but here in Georgia if you want parole you have to adhere strickly to the rules. He's also in Georgia Inmate locaters if you want to look him up too.

This is probably academic given Mr. Dobbs' decision to put a tattoo of an inverted pentagram on his throat and Strickland's having several murder convictions. Neither are going anywhere soon.... But being this is my field I find it interesting.

I don't know if you are mixing up overall parole eligibility with the date they put on the website as the estimated parole date. I researched it a bit and found nothing conclusive, but enough to develop a theory that in reality it is just that the parole board has not approved him for possible release.

Mr. Dobbs for example. His 20 to life parole eligibility would have been in 2009. Looking at the site, the date for parole is a projected release date. He doesn't have one. This probably means that the inmate hasn't passed the first hurdle for parole and is not scheduled to be released or that he did but screwed it up before release. Generally they set a date for release and during that time hear any new challenges to release and watch the inmate's conduct.

I don't know how Georgia works, but some states will reconsider parole only every ten years. We generally do three in life cases, one in all others.


Georgia case law is specific about the limited instances where LWOP sentences can be handed down. It has to be a capital murder case where the jury chooses life, or a fourth felony. That is why I find the mechanics of the whole thing interesting, that prison discipline could punish more harshly than a court.

 

[Cainkane1]

Why? In the context of the life he seemed to be leading assuming he was a virgin at 14 isn't all that sound. Even so, how one teen sexual encounter is supposed to make a lifetime of prison somehow significantly less awful is unclear to me.

He's probably had more than one sexual encounter since he's been in prison. When it comes to sex I imagine he has something to talk about. I doubt if he does want to discuss these encounters but he definitely would have something to say if he did.

Authorities loath this guy. The police disliked him as a juvenile offender.

I was talking with a police officer who interrogated this guy after the murder. He was cheerful and happy. When asked why he did it he said it was because she called him a little ****. This would not have been possible becase she was shot through a closed glass window. It was also out of character for the young lady to say such a thing. The sheriff said "Guess what Randy? I think you're a little ****". Randy had his hands cuffed behind his back and while being led to the jail he smiled for the cameras. If he ever went before a parole board I'm sure they saw this.

If you'll notice his picture he isn't smiling now.

Randy is a danger to society. He lived and breathed causing pain. There didn't have to be a reason it was his pleasure to hurt someone. He isn't a big person but he's skilled at what he does. He has a talent for it. Societys better off without him.

His older brother made this comment. "He isn't crazy, he's just mean as Hell".

 

[Cainkane1]

Concerning Robert Strickland.

This is probably academic given Mr. Dobbs' decision to put a tattoo of an inverted pentagram on his throat and Strickland's having several murder convictions. Neither are going anywhere soon.... But being this is my field I find it interesting.


He was a bully in highschool. Like Randy Dobbs he was a cheap shot artist. He picked fights with people who could not possibly win against him and he spit on people. He spit on me once for no reason at all.

Unlike Randys case I lack details but he did beat someone to death. He had a chance for parole but I no longer see that option at inmate information.

 

[Suddenly]

His older brother made this comment. "He isn't crazy, he's just mean as Hell".

This happens. I remember hiring a psychiatrist to do an evaluation. He called me to see if I wanted a formal report, I asked what would be in it... he said... "Your client is an *******."

Unlike Randys case I lack details but he did beat someone to death. He had a chance for parole but I no longer see that option at inmate information.

I can't figure that out, it was the case with every murder life sentence with parole eligibility that I bothered to check, ten or so. Yet the sentence for life without parole explicitly says so, thus my theory that he's theoretically eligible but at present has no proposed date.

That Strickland guy is one ugly dude.... that can't help.

 

[Cainkane1]

This happens. I remember hiring a psychiatrist to do an evaluation. He called me to see if I wanted a formal report, I asked what would be in it... he said... "Your client is an *******."




I can't figure that out, it was the case with every murder life sentence with parole eligibility that I bothered to check, ten or so. Yet the sentence for life without parole explicitly says so, thus my theory that he's theoretically eligible but at present has no proposed date.

That Strickland guy is one ugly dude.... that can't help.

Bobby Strickland is a goon. A short but husky goon of a man and thats the way he was as a kid. Like Randy he enjoyed inflicting pain and I'm sure the person he killed was assaulted first, tried to fight back and Strickland beat him to death.

 

[Beerina]

<derail>
No, it's government that doesn't trust us to run a bath;

This week, John Prescott was accused of "nanny state interference" after it was announced that the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is considering regulating the maximum temperature of domestic baths. As part of the plans, which could be implemented next year, thermostatic mixing valves may be fitted in all new homes.
See: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3318578/So-Mr-Prescott-how-hot-should-my-bath-be.html
</derail>

Ya know, "What this country needs is a good war." With nothing particularly horrible happening, lesser, indeed, stupid issues float up and assume the gravitas of major problems.



"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

 

[aggle-rithm]

I think the Death penalty is not up to date anymore. Its the year 2010, we should stop that medieval practice of killing people. I find it uncivilized.

I think it's important to acknowledge that our Western belief in the sanctity of human life is cultural, not universal. This struck me when I read the book "Sick To Death", about an incompetent Indian-born doctor working in the Australian healthcare system. Although he was charismatic and very popular among people in the medical profession, the number of complaints against him grew so large that he found himself the subject of a government investigation.

In Australia, this doctor was "exposed" as incompetent and became a pariah. However, in his hometown in India, where he had always been considered a hero, people couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. So a few patients were maimed and a few died. So what? Don't people die in hospitals all the time?

This attitude was explained by an Indian native who said "In India, life is cheap." It sounds harsh and cruel, but once I put aside my ethnocentricity for a moment it occurred to me that there are many countries in the world who get along just fine without having this requirement that every individual be considered precious and irreplaceable. I think that as the population density gets higher and higher, life gets cheaper. That certainly seems to be the case in China, where death sentences are handed out liberally, even for non-violent offenses.

Again, it sounds terrible...but I grew up in a culture that considers life to be sacred. Not all cultures do...at least not to the same extent.

 

[Cainkane1]

I think it's important to acknowledge that our Western belief in the sanctity of human life is cultural, not universal. This struck me when I read the book "Sick To Death", about an incompetent Indian-born doctor working in the Australian healthcare system. Although he was charismatic and very popular among people in the medical profession, the number of complaints against him grew so large that he found himself the subject of a government investigation.

In Australia, this doctor was "exposed" as incompetent and became a pariah. However, in his hometown in India, where he had always been considered a hero, people couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. So a few patients were maimed and a few died. So what? Don't people die in hospitals all the time?

This attitude was explained by an Indian native who said "In India, life is cheap." It sounds harsh and cruel, but once I put aside my ethnocentricity for a moment it occurred to me that there are many countries in the world who get along just fine without having this requirement that every individual be considered precious and irreplaceable. I think that as the population density gets higher and higher, life gets cheaper. That certainly seems to be the case in China, where death sentences are handed out liberally, even for non-violent offenses.

Again, it sounds terrible...but I grew up in a culture that considers life to be sacred. Not all cultures do...at least not to the same extent.

Lets hope life remains sacred in the USA and in europe. Too bad it isn't scared everywhere.

 

[kedo1981]

Wow I couldn’t have made a better argument Cain
Kill violent offenders the first time.
Hey Suddenly what’s the estimated number of crimes a “lifer” commits before they become a lifer and have to suffer that awful hell of having 3 hots and a cot and sodomy for life?
It’s like 10 to 20 is it not?

 

[quarky]

I came home early from work one day, and I saw my daughter, tied to the bed, screaming in agony, or so I assumed, with a 'darkie' on top of her, so naturally, I killed him...with a blunt object, natch...but, turns out, he was her boyfriend, and they were play-acting some rough sex.

Long story short, I was given the death penalty. Gas.
But then, later on, I clawed my way out of the grave and became a zombie!
And now, I just keep killing and eating brains. But I can't be given the death penalty again because of double jeopardy.

So,

Its a complicated issue.

 

[bynmdsue]

That's not quite how double jeopardy works.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

There is also the problem of mistaken identity. In college I went to a speech about how unreliable eye witness testimony is (even when the witness is not deliberately lying, they were just mistaken) and about all these various wrongly acused rapists. Frankly, a lot of times it was a case of a scared white woman who couldn't tell big black men apart. They had speakers there, a woman and a man. The man had spent over a decade in prison after she had mistakenly identified him as her rapist. Years later, after the advent of DNA analysis, the Innocense Project was able to use DNA evidence to establish that the woman had ACTUALLY been raped by a known serial rapist, not the man she accused. It was really sad, because the woman talked about how she has a hard time living with herself knowing that her mistake made this man lose over a decade of his life....that's why she now goes around the country with him talking about the dangers of being too reliant on eye witness testimony.

Imagine how hard it would have been for her to live with herself if he'd been executed.

This is the case you are talking about:

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/72.php

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/interviews/thompson.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-SBTRLoPuo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4V6aoYuDcg&feature=channel

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/local_news/epaper/2009/03/24/a1a_eyewitness_0318.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2lLjLUJXnU

As sad as this case is, it is rather unfair of you to call her "a scared white woman who couldn't tell big black men apart." For one, the rapist and the innocent man did look alike- even very much alike (apart from the fact they were both big and black, that is). When they- crazily enough- landed in the same prison together, prison staff and other prisoners used to confuse the two of them. For two, the rapist had taken great pains to hide his face from the woman so it is little wonder she was not completely correct in recalling his features. For three, the police screwed up. For heaven's sake, they apparently let the victim search the crime scene for evidence and collect it on her own. Improper forensic science and a very bad call by the judge/courts were also contributing factors, not just eyewitness mis identification. And they ignored the fact that the second witness did not ID him at first but changed her mind later on and trusted that the first one had been right; they pretty much banked on the first one and forgot about the second one for the trial. Not to mention the fact that they didn't believe the real rapist when he confessed to it. For four, the innocent man apparently gave the cops a fake alibi because he either did not want to admit what he really was doing that night or genuinely confused two nights (but, either way, made it seem like he was lying) and displayed some pretty bad attitude during the criminal trial- and he had a prior criminal record for some pretty serious crimes. And pretty much the same crimes- sexual assault, burglary- he was now accused of again. So he did himself no favors. And the police were almost completely to blame for the victim's mis ID because of the faulty way they conducted both line ups.

 

[Beerina]

Are there actual, known, proven cases in modern times of errors?

This comes up every time a death penalty thread starts, and I've yet to see such.

 

[Darat]

Certainly in the UK there are plenty of examples of people being convicted for murder and then their convictions being overturned. Just two that I can recall off the top of my head are Sally Clark convicted of murdering her two babies and Sean Hodgson last year released after serving over 25 years for a murder he didn't commit.

Miscarriages of justice for even the most serious of crimes are unfortunately not as rare as they should be.

 

[Rolfe]

Just looking at Meadow's cases, there was Sally Clark, Donna Anthony and Angela Cannngs. Also remember Barry George (didn't kill Jill Dando).

Then again, the Birmingham Six, the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven.

I couldn't name names as regards the USA, but I've seen threads on this very forum that have made very convincing cases for innocent people having been convicted, and sometimes executed. There was one case where an accidental fire was judged to be arson, and someone was executed for the crime.

Rolfe.