Can't we all just get along?

[Francesca R]

I hope this post will not be moved.
Thanks.

I suspect your credibility is comprehensively shredded anyway, even without you continuing to advertise it here--so it matters little whether it is moved or not.

 

[gtc]

We are speaking about if a woman really gives her consent or not to a man who is coming unexpected in her bed, and we seem to forget that, in other parts of the world, thousands of women are getting raped and few seem to care.
I think this is a moral double standard.
Again, I hope this post will not be moved.
Thanks.

No one is forgetting that thousands of women are raped.

We all care about women being raped.

But if you are so morally superior to us, why don't you start a thread to talk about the issue and share with us what you have done to try to stop it.

 

[Fiona]

We are speaking about if a woman really gives her consent or not to a man who is coming unexpected in her bed, and we seem to forget that, in other parts of the world, thousands of women are getting raped and few seem to care.

You have absolutely no evidence for that assertion.

I think this is a moral double standard.

And I think you are changing the subject. Now what?

 

[gtc]

Done.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4235102#post4235102

 

[Francesca R]

No. However you already claim to know that 97-98% of the men accused of rape are guilty before the case has got to court.

Do I? Where? You are mixing me up with Yaffle.

Meanwhile I have responded to a number of your points and you have ignored the responses (including questions), and you prefer to steer the subject back towards a theory that rape is significantly over reported and false convictions are commonplace.

Why? Why are you not satisfied that this is not what happens? Why are you trying to prove something fictitious?

 

[Fiona]

Do I? Where? You are mixing me up with Yaffle.

Meanwhile I have responded to a number of your points and you have ignored the responses (including questions), and you prefer to steer the subject back towards a theory that rape is significantly over reported and false convictions are commonplace.

Why? Why are you not satisfied that this is not what happens? Why are you trying to prove something fictitious?

Well at the risk of speaking for Ivor the Engineer, I think it is part of the point of this thread, Francesca. We are all rather irrational on this topic: we have deeply held beliefs which we imbibed before we were able to think and which are reinforced in many ways. For a lot of men one of those is the fear of false allegation. It is really hard to have those kinds of certainties challenged - is this not the experience of all sceptics? Every now and then we trip on an issue where our emotions interfere with critical thinking and we do not even notice it is happening. We strive for scepticism: but we are not machines and it is not all we do or all that informs our opinions; so I think anyway.

I personally did not realise the strength of this myth for a long time, as I have said. It is to be expected that it will not be given up easily or lightly. The research which you and Prof Yaffle etc are presenting is essential and I am grateful for your contributions: but it takes a ton of evidence to dispel something as deep rooted as this.

To his credit, Ivor is at least listening (though I agree he is not really engaging with points raised): we need to cut people some slack while they get their heads around this. Some men feel as strongly about this as some women feel when it is asserted that rape is their own fault: and I, for one, react strongly when that type of thing is said. Again, this thread aims to try to deal with those myths and we cannot get anywhere if we don't acknowledge these very different background perceptions.

And now Ivor will come in and tell me I have no idea of his perceptions and he will probably be right: I am trying though

 

[Francesca R]

I personally did not realise the strength of this myth for a long time, as I have said. It is to be expected that it will not be given up easily or lightly.

Yes I know how strong the myth is. The truth is ugly. Testimony to that is the disproportional effort one can see to locate any evidence that makes it less horrific than it is (by introducing and then playing-up false reports and false convictions, as a "balancing" piece of ugliness), and via a large amount of focus on the real, but frankly by comparison rare-almost-to-the-point-of-negligible, existence of female-on-male rape and the more severely damaging attitudes that prevail about this.

Thankfully though, the kind of horrendous attitude expressed in a post that was excised from the thread--that women who did not want to be raped should basically keep their legs shut--is hardly ever seen in my experience.

 

[tyr_13]

Yes I know how strong the myth is. The truth is ugly. Testimony to that is the disproportional effort one can see to locate any evidence that makes it less horrific than it is (by introducing and then playing-up false reports and false convictions, as a "balancing" piece of ugliness), and via a large amount of focus on the real, but frankly by comparison rare-almost-to-the-point-of-negligible, existence of female-on-male rape and the more severely damaging attitudes that prevail about this.
Thankfully though, the kind of horrendous attitude expressed in a post that was excised from the thread--that women who did not want to be raped should basically keep their legs shut--is hardly ever seen in my experience.

I'm sorry, but nothing about it being rare makes it any less horrific. The horror happens to a smaller number of people, but that doesn't make the fear any less. I don't think this is supposed to be a 'wronged off' where we try to decide that women rape victims are 'more victim-ed' by rape than male victims of rape and false accusations.

You're right about the second point, that attitude is hardly ever seen in my experience either. Yet I keep running into it applied to men.

 

[Francesca R]

I'm sorry, but nothing about it being rare makes it any less horrific. The horror happens to a smaller number of people, but that doesn't make the fear any less.

Assuredly it does make the fear less. I cannot fathom why some people are still trying to say otherwise. I guarantee that the typical woman is more in fear, in more aspects of her daily life, of rape by a man than the typical man is in fear of rape by a woman.

How could you possibly suggest otherwise?

 

[tyr_13]

What you are saying is that the typical woman is more concerned with rape, that more women are in fear. The level of fear, when fear is present, is what I was suggesting is more equal that you'd believe.

I can't claim to speak for the 'typical' man, but of most of the men I know, the fear of false accusation of any type of sexual misconduct is remarkably high. Of the women I know, the fear of rape hasn't been an issue except for when sexual assault actually happened. But I can't speak for the typical woman either.

 

[Francesca R]

What you are saying is that the typical woman is more concerned with rape, that more women are in fear. The level of fear, when fear is present, is what I was suggesting is more equal that you'd believe.

No, I am saying exactly what I said. The typical woman fears rape/sexual attack in a lot of everyday situations. It modifies her behaviour a lot of the time. And it is present a lot of the time. In each of the above, "a lot" means massively more than is the case for the typical man fearing rape/sexual assault from a woman. (Also more--if not "massively more"--than the typical man fears it from another man).

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

If I'm presented with two equally plausible accounts from a woman and a man of how they ended up having sex, there is nothing unusual or irregular in either story to explain and no other evidence to support one version of events more than another, how am I supposed to decide who is telling the truth beyond reasonable doubt?

It seems you want juries to be made aware of the prior probability of women who claim they have been raped and go to court that are telling the truth (and by implication the probability of men lying). But the court process doesn't* (and shouldn't) work that way. Equal prior probabilities should be assumed. Juries are supposed to decide only on the evidence which has been presented to them, which in this case boils down to her anecdote vs. his anecdote. If you tell an average member of the public that there is a 98% chance a woman is telling the truth (and thus a man is lying), my fear is he/she will round that up to near 100% for this woman if her story is plausible.

Here's a thought. We know that as a group black people commit a higher proportion of some crimes. Should the jury be informed of this prior probability in cases where the defence and prosecution cases are otherwise equivocal and the defendant is black?

Perhaps in the real world the scenario I described above does not occur very often and there is usually some additional evidence to back up one person's account of events more than the other person's account, or one account is less plausible or consistent than the other. If so then it becomes a question of how much doubt is reasonable, which I agree is going to be swayed by the jury members' prior (and possibly false) beliefs about men's and women's behaviour and intentions. For example, my personal opinion is if it was found a drug such as GHB or a benzo had been used, or the woman was so drunk she could not be expected to consent then I would almost certainly find the man guilty (unless he was claiming he did not have sex with her and had some very good evidence to support his claim). I was amazed to read that this is not generally the case.

Francesca,

I'm sorry if I have not responded to all your points. When they are buried in text I often miss them, especially if I'm at work. If you could C&P the questions into a single post I'll do my best to answer.



*Though it is known that juries are swayed by a defendant's appearance coupled with prior beliefs.

 

[Francesca R]

If I'm presented with two equally plausible accounts from a woman and a man of how they ended up having sex, there is nothing unusual or irregular in either story to explain and no other evidence to support one version of events more than another, how am I supposed to decide who is telling the truth beyond reasonable doubt?

All I can say is this is what juries do, and that I think you are being overly simplistic about it to reach your implicit conclusion that is it not possible. And it's not "who you believe", it is "do you believe the prosecution case beyond reasonable doubt"? If not, no conviction. But I think you introduce an unnecessary and very damaging impediment to justice with your notion that a trial should be cancelled if witness testimony is all there is. As I have said, that is just not the way such evidence is viewed in the legal world. It seems to be a misguided idea born of likening it to analytical science. Social justice is not science.

It seems you want juries to be made aware of the prior probability of women who claim they have been raped and go to court that are telling the truth (and by implication the probability of men lying).

Of course I am not. (I don't know where you got that idea from).

Francesca,

I'm sorry if I have not responded to all your points. When they are buried in text I often miss them, especially if I'm at work. If you could C&P the questions into a single post I'll do my best to answer.

I can't do that--I am logged in from my phone and it is a cut down version of the forum so that's hard. (I don't think I have very many long posts in this).

 

[tyr_13]

No, I am saying exactly what I said. The typical woman fears rape/sexual attack in a lot of everyday situations. It modifies her behaviour a lot of the time. And it is present a lot of the time. In each of the above, "a lot" means massively more than is the case for the typical man fearing rape/sexual assault from a woman. (Also more--if not "massively more"--than the typical man fears it from another man).

I don't mean any disrespect, but how exactly do you know what the typical man is afraid of and how he modifies his behavior because of it? How do you know how the typical woman feels?

One example of how I know personally that some men modify their actions because of this fear is that they won't help out a drunk woman. Ever. They won't carry her to a couch if she is passed out, they won't drive her to her house, they won't take her to a bathroom to puke. Don't touch a drunk girl. I was unaware of this idea until I had to help an ex girlfriend and two of her drunk friends home and someone informed me. (This was an even more problematic situation as one of the girls kept repeating, "You know you want this.")

I have a friend younger than me that is afraid to be alone with a woman. I'm not about to claim it is a rational fear, but he is downright afraid of it. I can't blame him based on his experiences.

Also, it really hurts when women are afraid of you. To get in an elevator and have a woman almost cowering in the corner just because you're a big guy is painful. Is it more painful than being afraid of the big guy in the elevator? I don't know. Neither do you.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

But I think you introduce an unnecessary and very damaging impediment to justice with your notion that a trial should be cancelled if witness testimony is all there is.

<snip>

I agree. For example, lying is quite hard (though not impossible) to do consistently.

 

[Francesca R]

I don't mean any disrespect, but how exactly do you know what the typical man is afraid of and how he modifies his behavior because of it? How do you know how the typical woman feels?

No disrespect taken. But we know a lot about the typical man and woman because there is a lot of data about them, extensively gathered by all kinds of social scientists. How else would I know?

 

[Fiona]

@ Tyr. As you have realised we are talking about two different levels. In the event of sexual assault I am quite sure that men and women are equally fearful: and we have reasons to believe this, presented in this thread and elsewhere. So I do not think there is any point of disagreement when we are talking about that.

But because this happens more to women (some are saying not so much more as is generally believed but I do not think it is really in dispute) and coupled with the way we are educated and with the way such things are reported then yes: women are in fear much more than men. More than is truly warranted I think.

You are correct to say that we cannot speak of the "typical" person with much confidence: and that is why I think sharing personal experience is helpful here. A lot of real knowledge starts with a question from anecdote and personal observation: though that is not an end: it is a place to start. To some extent the dialogue I am trying for here is an attempt to get us to better understand each other

When you say "Of the women I know, the fear of rape hasn't been an issue except for when sexual assault actually happened " may I ask how you know that? It is so at odds with my own experience that I find it genuinely astonishing. Do the women you know not take the precautions I have mentioned? Why do you think there is a market for pepper spray, which one of the women who shared her experience in the other thread used?For me, and for every woman I know, that is discounted before we even begin, in so many ways. It is the background to our lives, and it limits us.

Perhaps this is easier for a man to understand if he thinks about sister or a daughter? I have no idea of your circumstances so it might not be relevant to you: but if you have a teenage son and daughter then can you see any difference in what you provide for them and what you require? In many families parents worry about their young people going out and they require to know where, and who with, and what time you will be back etc. Is it your experience that the limits are identical? Because it is not mine. I do know that many american young people get a driving license young and that serves as a safeguard for young women if they have their own transport: so that might make a difference to this kind of experience. Still it might help to think about it from that point of view: or perhaps not. I am reaching for ways to try to make this real for you. If that is not possible then I can only ask you to listen to Francesca and me and to take that perception back to the women you know and have that conversation seriously. I mentioned before that this is so much a part of our lives that it is often not very conscious: but when it is discussed those fears underpin a great deal of what we do and what we don't do.

Another way I have tried to explain it: have you read "Bonfire of the Vanities"?. If you have you will remember there is an episode where a rich white man finds himself stranded in a poor black ghetto. The "voices of his education" make him fearful in that situation: he "knows" that the people around him are predatory and he is scared. That is what the world is like for women a lot of the time. The man in the book is unreasonably scared because of what he has been taught: and most people in that area are just ordinary folk living their lives: but that is not what his culture has taught him. Perhaps you can understand it if you think about that context? I do not suppose that he told his pals that he limited his travel about the city because he feared violence from black people or poor people: but he did.

 

[tyr_13]

So more women are victimized, and that makes women in general a victim to a greater degree? That's what I've been trying to clarify from the point where I said, "What you are saying is that the typical woman is more concerned with rape, that more women are in fear. The level of fear, when fear is present, is what I was suggesting is more equal that you'd believe."

I don't want to get sidetracked by what 'typical' people do. What I want is to talk about the people who are victimized by assault, fear of assault, false accusation, and fear of false accusation.

 

[tyr_13]

I know that by talking with them about it. It would seem that the men in their lives fear them being raped more than they do. Many have been give pepper spray and stun guns, but either disposed of them or just put them on a shelf somewhere.

Of course this could all be just my personal experience being exceptional rather than indicative of the society at large. I know of more male friends who have been sexually assaulted than female ones, but that's only by a margin of 4 to 3.

Sorry, I have to go to work. Thanks for not jumping all over me as I am used to happening when men being afraid is discussed.

 

[Fiona]

Again @Tyr. I do not know how much a man modifies his behaviour because of fear of false accusation but I imagine quite a lot.

What you and Francesca were talking about was what women do in face of fear of sexual assault: and from the beginning we have been talking to some people here who have tried to argue that is equal. I do not think it is and most men here agree, so far as I can tell: indeed your lift example seems to show you are actually very well aware of this

I raised the complementary male fear in the OP: I am not trying to devalue it nor to suggest it is not important: the fear is unreasonable in terms of the facts: but it is real nonetheless, and it is an important reason for our failure to communicate because we focus on such different things. So I am very interested to hear the ways this fear does in fact modify male behaviour, if people are willing to share.