Cancel culture IRL

[TurkeysGhost]

Trying to keep up with what counts as cancel culture, so far it seems to include:

1) general populations withdrawing support from public figures as negative information becomes widespread
2) Regular people getting fired after a campaign of public pressure by uninvolved internet strangers.
3) Regular people getting fired after a campaign of public pressure by their immediate coworkers.
4) death threats and other harassment that disrupt people's lives, but don't actually result in firing or official sanction because the complaints are coming from an unpopular lunatic fringe that doesn't actually wield much public support.

What am I missing

 

[Dr. Keith]

Trying to keep up with what counts as cancel culture, so far it seems to include:

1) general populations withdrawing support from public figures as negative information becomes widespread
2) Regular people getting fired after a campaign of public pressure by uninvolved internet strangers.
3) Regular people getting fired after a campaign of public pressure by their immediate coworkers.
4) death threats and other harassment that disrupt people's lives, but don't actually result in firing or official sanction because the complaints are coming from an unpopular lunatic fringe that doesn't actually wield much public support.

What am I missing

5) Author's family deciding to no longer publish some of the author's less popular work that hasn't aged well;

6) Children's toy changing brand name slightly to more correctly reflect the growth of the brand from a single toy to a family of toys;

 

[Mumbles]

5) Author's family deciding to no longer publish some of the author's less popular work that hasn't aged well;

6) Children's toy changing brand name slightly to more correctly reflect the growth of the brand from a single toy to a family of toys;

7) Sex trafikking references and confused African/South American stereotype figure removed from childrens Disneyworld rides.

 

[xjx388]

It does look like was an employee for some time and Apple did respond to criticism at the time of the acquisition.

But, I can't find anything noting that he would be actually managing Apple employees.

An employee may or may not mind their company using Dre to sell headphones, but I suspect more would mind if they turned up and found their career in the hands of Dre, their new boss. It is a different sort of relationship.

Entirely fair reading.

I do still think that there’s something a little bit off with being willing to have someone like Dre represent your company -which has a pretty prominent Inclusion and Diversity policy- in any capacity. IOW, they are willing to make money off a guy who made a career out of doing and saying some pretty hateful stuff.

Antonio Garcia Martinez really didn’t do anything even near that level and they ousted him. It seems inconsistent to me and a sign that it’s not really about the sexism; it’s about money.

Which is fine; I get it. It’s just the veneer of (from their public statement about his firing), “Behavior that demeans or discriminates against people for who they are has no place here,” which strikes me as virtue signaling BS.

 

[JoeMorgue]

8) Suddenly I can't do things which are openly offensive without the unimportant people getting up in arms and making it so there are.... *pause for dramatic effect* consequences!

I don't know if I've made this point in this exact thread or not (as I've stated most discussion on this board at this point are meta-discussions that we are having across multiple threads) but I compared it to how Thanksgiving Dinners worked when I was a kid compared to how they should have worked.

When I was kid we were told to not bring up certain topics (and you can guess which ones) around Uncle Billy because it would set him off. It wasn't until I got older that I questioned why nobody spent any effort telling Uncle Billy to not be a racist, sexists, proudly ignorant *******.

"Cancel Culture" is when Cousin Bobby brings his black girlfriend to Thanksgiving Dinner and when Uncle Bobby makes a fuss... you make Uncle Billy shutup or leave instead of Cousin Bobby or his girlfriend. It's just that on a societal level. I'm far, far beyond over with the wrong sides of discussion being given all the violation and agency in discussions because this third side that just wants doesn't want to hear the argument thinks just given them what they want is an easier and quicker solution.

"Cancel Culture" is no longer trading quick and easy "Peace and Quiet" for fairness and rightness.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Entirely fair reading.

I do still think that there’s something a little bit off with being willing to have someone like Dre represent your company -which has a pretty prominent Inclusion and Diversity policy- in any capacity. IOW, they are willing to make money off a guy who made a career out of doing and saying some pretty hateful stuff.

Antonio Garcia Martinez really didn’t do anything even near that level and they ousted him. It seems inconsistent to me and a sign that it’s not really about the sexism; it’s about money.

Which is fine; I get it. It’s just the veneer of (from their public statement about his firing), “Behavior that demeans or discriminates against people for who they are has no place here,” which strikes me as virtue signaling BS.

It's pretty fair to say that the entertainment industry is pretty infamous for having extremely relaxed standards of "workplace" conduct. Not that this is a good thing, as tales of abuse in this more informal industry are rampant.

There's a good question whether any company professing to have any serious ethical code would co-mingle with such a notoriously "anything goes" industry, but the money generated by entertainment sure does seem to assuage a lot of doubts.

 

[Darat]

It's pretty fair to say that the world entertainment industry is pretty infamous for having extremely relaxed standards of "workplace" conduct. Not that this is a good thing, as tales of abuse in this more informal industry are rampant.

There's a good question whether any company professing to have any serious ethical code would commingle with such a notoriously "anything goes" industry, but the money generated by entertainment sure does seem to assuage a lot of doubts.

FTFY

 

[Dr. Keith]

Entirely fair reading.

I do still think that there’s something a little bit off with being willing to have someone like Dre represent your company -which has a pretty prominent Inclusion and Diversity policy- in any capacity. IOW, they are willing to make money off a guy who made a career out of doing and saying some pretty hateful stuff.

Antonio Garcia Martinez really didn’t do anything even near that level and they ousted him. It seems inconsistent to me and a sign that it’s not really about the sexism; it’s about money.

Which is fine; I get it. It’s just the veneer of (from their public statement about his firing), “Behavior that demeans or discriminates against people for who they are has no place here,” which strikes me as virtue signaling BS.

I also think you can play some pretty misogynistic tunes on your iPod through iTunes.

It's not a hill I'm willing to die on, but there does seem to be a difference between what people will accept as the product versus what people will accept in the workplace.

ETA: Just because you work at a dildo factory doesn't mean you have to work with dicks.

 

[xjx388]

I also think you can play some pretty misogynistic tunes on your iPod through iTunes.

It's not a hill I'm willing to die on, but there does seem to be a difference between what people will accept as the product versus what people will accept in the workplace.

ETA: Just because you work at a dildo factory doesn't mean you have to work with dicks.

Maybe the bigger question is this: Why do so many in our society accept a misogynistic product? The things we are entertained by reflect the culture. We can look back at those Dr. Seuss books and say they were pretty dang racist now but those kinds of caricatures and stereotypes in the media of the time were simply reflections of the attitudes of the culture. It wasn't seen as a big deal. It was funny! We grew as a culture and now you can't do that in the media or IRL.

We have a generation of people who were raised on the violence, misogyny and homophobia in Dr. Dre's, et. al. lyrics and videos. For those late 80's and 90's kids (even today) that was some cool ******! Hip Hop (or whatever you call it these days) both reflects and influences the culture.

How can we simultaneously celebrate/reward and condemn/punish hateful crap? Call it all out, whether it's "entertainment" or "real life."

 

[dirtywick]

Plenty of people had problems with the content of rap lyrics at the time and still do. For Dre specifically, NWA was banned internationally from radio stations, stores, and were even arrested for performing.

Personally I feel like going after Dr Dre for making misogynistic music is like going after Anthony Hopkins for cannibalism

 

[Emily's Cat]

Plenty of people had problems with the content of rap lyrics at the time and still do. For Dre specifically, NWA was banned internationally from radio stations, stores, and were even arrested for performing.

Personally I feel like going after Dr Dre for making misogynistic music is like going after Anthony Hopkins for cannibalism

Are you suggesting that Sir Anthony Hopkins actually *does* fry up people's livers?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Are you suggesting that Sir Anthony Hopkins actually *does* fry up people's livers?

I’ve seen him drink Chianti. QED.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Maybe the bigger question is this: Why do so many in our society accept a misogynistic product? The things we are entertained by reflect the culture. We can look back at those Dr. Seuss books and say they were pretty dang racist now but those kinds of caricatures and stereotypes in the media of the time were simply reflections of the attitudes of the culture. It wasn't seen as a big deal. It was funny! We grew as a culture and now you can't do that in the media or IRL.

We have a generation of people who were raised on the violence, misogyny and homophobia in Dr. Dre's, et. al. lyrics and videos. For those late 80's and 90's kids (even today) that was some cool ******! Hip Hop (or whatever you call it these days) both reflects and influences the culture.

How can we simultaneously celebrate/reward and condemn/punish hateful crap? Call it all out, whether it's "entertainment" or "real life."

I think it’s an excellent question. Right up there with why do we accept so much violence but censor nudity in the US.

But neither tell us much about the HR issue that Apple was dealing with. This was their employees complaining, not their customers.

 

[xjx388]

Plenty of people had problems with the content of rap lyrics at the time and still do. For Dre specifically, NWA was banned internationally from radio stations, stores, and were even arrested for performing.

Sure, but they weren’t cancelled and such “backlash” only served to make them legends of the game.

Personally I feel like going after Dr Dre for making misogynistic music is like going after Anthony Hopkins for cannibalism

Nah, Dre did some pretty misogynistic stuff IRL.

 

[dirtywick]

Sure, but they weren’t cancelled and such “backlash” only served to make them legends of the game.

Wasn’t for a lack of effort. Most notably it was a lot more coordinated and widespread than most of what this thread is about.

Nah, Dre did some pretty misogynistic stuff IRL.

Could be. But we were talking about the product.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The right wing taking a quick break from caring about "cancel culture" to get a journalist fired from the AP for supporting Palestine.

Let's just wait for Bari Weiss to get outraged over this censorship, shall we?

An interview with Emily Wilder, recent Stanford grad fired from AP job over criticisms of Israel

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Emily-Wilder-Associated-Press-Israel-Palestine-AP-16192391.php

"There's no question I was just canceled," Wilder told SFGATE by phone Thursday afternoon. "This is exactly the issue with the rhetoric around 'cancel culture.' To Republicans, cancel culture is usually seen as teens or young people online advocating that people be held accountable over accusations of racism or whatever it may be, but when it comes down to who actually has to deal with the lifelong ramifications of the selective enforcement of cancel culture — specifically over the issue of Israel and Palestine — it's always the same side."

It's almost as if the accusations of cancel culture is a blatantly cynical, bad-faith smokescreen. The traditional gatekeepers of power and discourse have no intention of giving up their own censorious power, they just resist anyone else ever acquiring the same.

ETA: There is probably few other issues that have as consistently lead to people being blacklisted, fired, or otherwise silenced than speaking out against Israel or in support of Palestine in the last few decades. It's very telling that on this undeniable example of system wide censorious conduct, the people frothing at the mouth about "cancel culture" have very little to say. The silence speaks volumes. They don't oppose "cancel culture", they just oppose changes in who gets a say in what's acceptable discourse.

 

[Mumbles]

Entirely fair reading.

I do still think that there’s something a little bit off with being willing to have someone like Dre represent your company -which has a pretty prominent Inclusion and Diversity policy- in any capacity. IOW, they are willing to make money off a guy who made a career out of doing and saying some pretty hateful stuff.

Well, these were decades ago - and the entire Death Row crew was well known for violence even at the ti me. That's actually why Dre and Snoop eventually abandoned the label - while owner Suge Knight is going to be in prison for a couple more decades. 'Cuz of the murdering he did.

THere's a pretty common understanding among older rap head that a lot of the 90s excess should be seen as a cautionary tale. Dre himself nods to this about his past in Eminem's "Conscience", Common refuses to perform his older songs that have homophobic content, and so forth.

Like folks said, pretty different from the guy that got fired from Apple.

 

[Stout]

It's almost as if the accusations of cancel culture is a blatantly cynical, bad-faith smokescreen.

That's not cancel culture, that's consequences culture.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Could be. But we were talking about the product.

Can you elaborate on the distinction you see here?

On the one hand, we have a person who creates overtly and blatant misogynistic and sexist personal products, and additionally has personally behaved in a clearly misogynistic and violent fashion toward females, including physically abusing them. That person partners with a large company, and that person's identity and personal reputation is used as a marketing device.

On the other hand, we have a person who included a single paragraph in a personal product, that was somewhat uncomplimentary toward a subset of females living in a particular region. This person is hired by the same large company in an executive capacity.

How do you figure that tying a company brand directly to the reputation and identity of an outright violent misogynist is somehow better or more acceptable than employing a person who dislikes some aspects of some females in one specific cultural context?

Speaking as a female of the human species... I cannot conceive of how Dr. Dre being directly tied to the Apple brand is somehow 'safer' than working with Garcia-Martinez, since I'm not looking to have an intimate personal relationship with them.

 

[Mumbles]

COn the other hand, we have a person who included a single paragraph in a personal product, that was somewhat uncomplimentary toward a subset of females living in a particular region. This person is hired by the same large company in an executive capacity.

Well, I can't link them (because I didn't care enough to bookmark them - yay depression episode I guess), but there were women who worked with him that had some pretty nasty stories about him harassing and belittling them. So apparently the book reflected his actions, and not just some nonsense he wrote.

Kinda like Dre, but without any sort of redemption arc thus far.