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Cancel culture IRL

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You are not arguing in good faith. You well understand from that for a corporation the reason they have “public behaviour” clauses is because employees breaching those types of clauses can effect their bottom line. If it didn’t there is no reason for a corporation to have such a clause.

Yes, I do understand. This was noted in my post. More than once. You continue to add exactly nothing to the discussion.

And it's remarkable that you would single out my post for arguing in bad faith. It "might" be called a morality clause. Astonishing.

Re: Cancel Culture

Assuming something that hasn’t been established.

While it is a fuzzy term, if you believe that we do not have some inchoate mutual understanding, then, well, you haven't been paying attention to the thread.

What alternatives do you think were not pursued in this 'case study'?

"Not pursued" is a clumsy attempt to reframe. I said the question is how we ought to react, and the alternatives were already suggested: Answering speech with speech -- short of terminating someone's job, escalating the culture war.

Adorably hypocritical 'argument' there.

What's adorably hypocritical is that you took issue with that section, but not the part that insulted Ben Shapiro's outfit.

Also, “judgement” and “judgment” are both correct spellings. Please stop trying to cancel the “e”.

People fought a war to unnecessary drop letters. Also, in America, we put periods inside quotation marks. It doens't make sense, but respect the troops.
 
WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

A page and half of vague complaining about... nothing.

A racist conspiracy theoriest got fired from being a secondary character on a streaming show. WHAT IS THE GODDAMN PROBLEM.

I'm so ******* sick of every step forward in actual improvement in actual problems being buried under a bunch of mush mouthed word salad hand wringing about some only vaguely related and undefined philosophical worry.
 
I'll post this separately because the quotations can become tedious.

As a case study for cancel culture, my question is how agitating for Carano's firing is going to improve the world?

If nothing else, it gives her a smaller platform. People who otherwise might will not be directed to her twitter feed, and thus will be exposed to fewer dangerous racist conspiracy theories.

Aren't there better, less punitive alternatives?

What do you suggest?

And what measures would you suggest to prevent the current situation? Should people be disallowed from bringing attention to Carano's bigotry? Should Disney be required to keep her on the show?
 
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"Not pursued" is a clumsy attempt to reframe. I said the question is how we ought to react, and the alternatives were already suggested: Answering speech with speech -- short of terminating someone's job, escalating the culture war.

lol, no it is no such thing. It is a elegant skipping of your attempts to be the one setting the goalposts and dictating the 'proper questions'.

Furthermore, the answer to my question builds the case that she ought to have been terminated. Try to dodge the point being made by abstracting to the meta-discussion, but 'just use speech' happened a lot before 'freedom of association' kicked in.



What's adorably hypocritical is that you took issue with that section, but not the part that insulted Ben Shapiro's outfit.

The irony continues. Not only do I not have to respond to everything, I don't even see where you insulted Shapiro's outfit. I get it; you just want to poison the well. People who disagree are, so completely unlike you, just keyboard warriors. Their motives are, totally dissimilar to yours, to feel better about themselves.

She wasn't fired for advocating of a lower tax rate, or how to calculate trade benefits, nor means testing for welfare. Her ideas were blatantly false, causing harm, and indicated she would not follow safety guidelines or respect her coworkers. It is bad enough to hold the beliefs she had, but to broadcast it after explaining the impact and told what would happen would be like trying to argue the only benefits from her termination could only be keyboard warriors feeling good about themselves after the harms reduced were already manifest.

She ought to have been fired. Duh.
 
Answering speech with speech

Isn't that what happened?

short of terminating someone's job

Exactly what are you suggesting here? Disney should be required to write Cara Dune into series 3 of The Mandalorian, and required to keep Carano on to play that character? Should they do this out of the goodness of their hearts, or should they be legally required to?

I'm not being facetious. These questions are ones that need to be answered in order for your suggestion to make any sense.

escalating the culture war.

Assuming that there actually is a "culture war", why is objecting to someone posting antisemitism escalating the culture war while posting antisemitism isn't? Or is it just the people who object to antisemitism who ought to change their behaviour?

Again, I'm not being facetious or rhetorical.
 
Her coworkers explained the harmful effects of them and how they were wrong.

Not only agreed, but I feel like this is what's deliberately skipped over in such hand-wringing. People are distorting things to make it look like

1. it's just some nutcase in the Twitter crowd distorting things, while nobody else gives a flip, and

2. it's somehow a new "culture" to react to that.

The actual facts are:

1. Such attitudes also affect coworkers. Someone being a racist and/or homophobic and/or transphobic twit is also affecting the happiness of not only other cast members, but also the sound guy or makeup artist or writer who may well be a middle-eastern homosexual jew. Even if they somehow manage to not be a racist/homophobic/whatever twit in person at work -- which most such twits don't; they tend to think it's just being right and telling things as they are -- the very fact that they do make such statements over a public medium is affecting everyone who gets forwarded those posts.

And as a producer or director you DO have to manage that, just like in any other business. You can't just demand that everyone be happy and get over it, just so that an overt bigotted twit can happily continue to be so.

and

2. It's nothing new. People have been fired for not playing nice with coworkers for as long as we have a recorded history.

I mean, even as public statements outside work go, we had stuff like someone being fired from Cheers in 1989, long before most people even heard of the Internet, much less Twitter, for basically insulting a co-worker on radio.

But generally, getting booted because the others can't get along with you is AT LEAST as old as Solon's reforms in 594 BCE. That's right: over 2600 years ago. That was how Greek democracy -- which we all still claim to be the successors of -- worked: if the others can't get along with you, for no matter what reason, even literally being too gay for a gay city like Athens (no, really, we have the historical records for THAT silly trial,) you get the boot.

Hell, it arguably even goes all the way back to tribal stage. The bushmen culture (which is at least hypothesized to be as closed to the original pre-warfare human culture as it gets) even has built in mechanisms for going to a different tribe, if the current one doesn't get along with you. And other tribal cultures can go as far as murder you for it.


So basically all I'm seeing isn't some dangerous new "culture", but a subset of the intersection of "old" and "idiot" on a Venn diagram, going reactionary and afraid of whatever kids these days are doing on this newfangled Twitter thing. OMG, if anyone posts any distortion of what you said on this newfangled Twitter thing, it has some kind of mind control powers, and everyone including your employer absolutely has no alternative but obey.

Which, to be fair, is also not something new. It goes back at least all the way to Hesiod, who thought there's no future for Greece if it's in the hands of the young 'uns. That's right: long before the golden age of Pericles, before even Greek democracy, an old idiot saw no future for Greece (much less a golden age) because the young 'uns are doing things differently than in his time.

Though arguably it goes back even before that. The first known historical novel, the Story Of Wenamun, circa 1000 BC, already goes full tilt with how morals and everything have gone to hell in his time, compared to good old times. It's actually set in 1195 BCE (year 5 of Pharaoh Ramesses XI), so he's thinking that even 200 years before his times, things had already gone wrong, compared to the good old day.

NB: the rule of Pharaoh Ramesses XI is generally considered a renaissance by historians. But nope, according to the dude who wrote that, things were already going to hell because young 'uns were doing things differently than back in the good ol' days :p
 
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United Talent Agency no longer represents her. ID PR, communications/media relations, dripped her as a client.
 
You can't just demand that everyone be happy and get over it, just so that an overt bigotted twit can happily continue to be so.

Even on top of that were the disdain for Covid-19 safety measures, the importance of which to a film set shouldn't need explaining (and the impact on the confidence of coworkers/vendors to work with such a person), and the entire election misinformation.

This is such a bad vehicle to lobby for termination being the unjustified result of mob mentality that it's comical.
 
that’s probably because mainstream conservatism’s only discernible position at this point is the sacred right to own libs
 
Earlier in this thread (or the other thread, as noted we're having the same meta-conversation across like 2-3 threads right now) equated the whole concept of "Cancel Culture" as some central problem to be solved is the same old passive-aggressive tactic people who are treating other people like crap always fall back on.

Darat has compared it to "Political Correctness" but I think that's only partially true. To me, it's the bog-standard "You're ruining everything by not letting me treat you like crap." line.

It's every toxic person who ever said "Oh you just can't take a joke." It's every bully mad that you got him in trouble by telling on him. It's every abusive husband telling the battered wife that she's the one breaking up the family if she doesn't take him back. It's that one relative at every Thanksgiving Dinner that's mad at you for bringing your black girlfriend because "You knew how your uncle was going to react, how could you ruin Thanksgiving like this" instead of being mad at your uncle for being a racist ********. It's every college rapist trying to make the narrative about their life being ruined.

And it has been built brick by brick on the defeatist, appeasement based attitude that we've adopted, the idea that they get to win by being unreasonable and impossible to argue with.
 
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If nothing else, it gives her a smaller platform. People who otherwise might will not be directed to her twitter feed, and thus will be exposed to fewer dangerous racist conspiracy theories.

Not to mention that cancelling her arse sounds out a clear warning to others - if you are thinking about writing something vile, racist or anti-Semetic, be prepared for the real chance that you might get fired, or become a pariah and otherwise have your life disrupted for publicly sharing your disgusting worldview.
 
Earlier in this thread (or the other thread, as noted we're having the same meta-conversation across like 2-3 threads right now) the whole concept of "Cancel Culture" as some central problem to be solved is the same old passive-aggressive tactic people who are treating other people like crap always fall back on.

Darat has compared it to "Political Correctness" but I think that's only partially true. To me, it's the bog-standard "You're ruining everything by not letting me treat you like crap." line.

It's every toxic person who ever said "Oh you just can't take a joke." It's every bully mad that you got him in trouble by telling on him. It's every abusive husband telling the battered wife that she's the one breaking up the family if she doesn't take him back. It's that one relative at every Thanksgiving Dinner that's mad at you for bringing your black girl because "You knew how your uncle was going to react" instead of being mad at your uncle for being a racist ********. It's every college rapist trying to make the narrative about their life being ruined.

And it has been built brick by brick on the defeatist, appeasement based attitude that we've adopted, the idea that they get to win by being unreasonable and impossible to argue with.

This, in spades, with bells and whistles, whilst sounding a klaxon!!

The Carano woman hasn't been cancelled for "expressing her opinion" - she has been given the archer because she has publicly posted vile, racist and anti-Semitic rhetoric which her employers do not want associated with them or any of their products.

The MyPillow guy hasn't been cancelled from social media platforms for being a conservative (as he claims), he's been cancelled because he used those platforms to spread lies and misinformation about the elections.
 
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What’s hilarious is that not only have these people not been cancelled, they’ve been coddled to the point of absurdity.

Gina Carano played a minor role on a television show and was engaged in conduct that directly insulted a family member of the star of that show. And she was given another chance.

She’s not a victim. She’s an entitled ***hole and her coworkers and employers eventually got tired of dealing with her entitled ***hole behavior.
 
It's every toxic person who ever said "Oh you just can't take a joke." It's every bully mad that you got him in trouble by telling on him. It's every abusive husband telling the battered wife that she's the one breaking up the family if she doesn't take him back. It's that one relative at every Thanksgiving Dinner that's mad at you for bringing your black girlfriend because "You knew how your uncle was going to react, how could you ruin Thanksgiving like this" instead of being mad at your uncle for being a racist ********. It's every college rapist trying to make the narrative about their life being ruined.

Sort of. I think it's actually going a bit farther than in your examples.

Previously, such people were only feeling safe to spout their nonsense in such limited audience situations as, well, in your example. It was just to said wife, or to the close family around the Thanksgiving dinner table, or such. Fewer trusted themselves with just a few coworkers they thought were on the same page. And almost nobody trusted themselves to go full racist in public, much less over a mass medium.

Now apparently the same people want to feel safe to go full public with it, and have no consequences.

Never mind that that never used to be the case. The whole point why the stereotypical racist grandpa only spewed bigotted nonsense around the Thanksgiving dinner table, and not, say, call radio to say it on the air, was the perception that it's not a popular opinion any more and there might be consequences if you do it openly in public.

Hell, the whole point of the evolution of dog-whistle terms was to not openly go and say that you hate the damn <insert racial slur>.

And they don't even want to continue that. Now they want to go full overt bigot. It's not asking for the status quo, it's asking for EXTRA rights.
 
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WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

A page and half of vague complaining about... nothing.

A racist conspiracy theoriest got fired from being a secondary character on a streaming show. WHAT IS THE GODDAMN PROBLEM.

I'm so ******* sick of every step forward in actual improvement in actual problems being buried under a bunch of mush mouthed word salad hand wringing about some only vaguely related and undefined philosophical worry.

Unhinged. At least this will amuse Johnny -- what with complaining about the complainers complaining about -- who cares, I've already lost interest.

If nothing else, it gives her a smaller platform. People who otherwise might will not be directed to her twitter feed, and thus will be exposed to fewer dangerous racist conspiracy theories.

Does it shrink her platform? Her profile's been given a boost, at least in the short-run. The firing is what makes the headlines. It's pushed her further into social media.

And what measures would you suggest to prevent the current situation? Should people be disallowed from bringing attention to Carano's bigotry? Should Disney be required to keep her on the show?

Of course people should be allowed to bring attention, and, sure, Disney should be allowed to fire her. They're not legally required to keep her on for season three; she does not own the character. However, she should be evaluated primarily on work-related duties, not her political views. The "measures" are a re-evaluation of norms. People shouldn't work themselves into a frenzy over a C-list actress so that the Mouse must weigh keeping her on out of the goodness of its cast-iron "heart." There's nothing wrong with objecting to anti-Semitic posts, but let's not attribute to malice what can readily be explained by stupidity.

lol, no it is no such thing. It is a elegant skipping of your attempts to be the one setting the goalposts and dictating the 'proper questions'.

This would be laughable if I didn't know you were being completely serious. "A elegant" is genius-level ineptitude.

Furthermore, the answer to my question builds the case that she ought to have been terminated. Try to dodge the point being made by abstracting to the meta-discussion, but 'just use speech' happened a lot before 'freedom of association' kicked in.

...

Her ideas were blatantly false, causing harm, and indicated she would not follow safety guidelines or respect her coworkers. It is bad enough to hold the beliefs she had, but to broadcast it after explaining the impact and told what would happen would be like trying to argue the only benefits from her termination could only be keyboard warriors feeling good about themselves after the harms reduced were already manifest.

She ought to have been fired. Duh.

What's "the case" against her? What harm has she caused? Produce the disqualifying comments because what I've seen are Joe-like hysterics.

A notable transphobic remark refers to an incident where she added "Beep/Bop/Boop" next to her name. She explained: "[My critics are] mad cuz I won't put pronouns in my bio to show my support for trans lives. After months of harassing me in every way. I decided to put 3 VERY controversial words in my bio.. beep/bop/boop I'm not against trans lives at all. They need to find less abusive representation." And: Beep/bop/boop has zero to do with mocking trans people �� & �� to do with exposing the bullying mentality of the mob that has taken over the voices of many genuine causes. I want people to know you can take hate with a smile. So BOOP you for misunderstanding. �� #AllLoveNoHate"

Now, I don't know if beep/bop/boop is some kind of dog whistle, but I'd expect she wouldn't either. Instead of mocking trans people, I'd just assume she was mocking "virtue-signalers."

Her controversial COVID politics involves, among other things I'd assume, posting a meme: "Democratic government leaders now recommends [sic] we all wear blindfolds along with masks so we can't see what's really going."

Another:

Open up your businesses & churches. Put whatever regulations you want to because that is your right but open them up. You’re telling me Covid-19 knows the difference between a protest or praise & worship. I haven’t even been to church in over a decade but I sure would go now.

The world IS open but no one is allowed to work. Working is a right you, as an American have. It gives us purpose, focus, pride and most importantly a way to support the ones we love. People are dropping like flies from depression and suicide, overdoses, MURDER. Enough already.

Gina Carano definitely should not work in a public health department, and if she refuses to observe COVID workplace regulations, she should be disciplined like anyone else.

One Tweet that had critics calling her a Nazi involves a picture with dozens of soldiers performing the familiar salute. She circled a man who was NOT saluting:

Carano clarified that she shared the photo to draw attention to a "heartbreaking and powerful story of a man who changed his ways for the woman he loved," as the photo showed a former Nazi, who eventually married a Jewish woman, refusing to give the "sieg heil" salute. But some commenters felt that simply sharing an image also featuring hundreds of Nazis sent the wrong message.

"You literally could've picked a better picture to show whatever u wanted to show that didn't have fricken n*zi's on it," one Twitter user replied.

Carano is an idiot, and maybe she gets Twitter critics she deserves. This clown censors the word Nazi and asks her to use another picture even though the picture is the whole point -- to show one person NOT saluting. The story Carano shares tugs the heart-strings of Hallmark watching airheads in the suburbs. The sort of people who are perfectly pleasant neighbors and co-workers -- and demented Facebook users.

Of course she's not staking out a position on the Laffer Curve, or urging the resurrection of the Balanced Budget Amendment. Those are not things regular people puzzle over. She's not getting DMs asking her to weigh on the latest report on child poverty from the Urban Institute.

A serious ongoing moral issue that gets virtually no attention is the mass-destruction/slaughter of sentient life. It's likely that many of you enthusiastically support it, and justify/rationalize it with all the reasoning power of a toddler. Even if this is more materially harmful than your bigoted brother-in-law's Parler account, it's perfectly understandable. Human beings are glorified apes susceptible to weird and foolish beliefs. People today are not less racist and homophobic because they're born with purer hearts. It's a matter of socialization.

As I noted earlier in the thread, all but socially maladjusted people know to avoid hurling racial epithets. In terms of COVID, we're less than a year into the pandemic, and so... some glorified apes will have dumb beliefs. It's not unreasonable for a person ignorant of infectious disease to play a role in a production of space opera. It's another matter entirely if she's angling to be President Lysol.

Sources: https://www.insider.com/gina-carano...-racist-for-sharing-a-photo-of-a-nazi-rally-1

https://www.insider.com/mandalorian-gina-carano-twitter-tweets-controversy-transphobic-2020-9

https://www.insider.com/fans-call-for-gina-carano-the-mandalorian-removal-anti-mask-2020-11
 
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Yes, I do understand. This was noted in my post. More than once. You continue to add exactly nothing to the discussion.

And it's remarkable that you would single out my post for arguing in bad faith. It "might" be called a morality clause. Astonishing.

Re: Cancel Culture



While it is a fuzzy term, if you believe that we do not have some inchoate mutual understanding, then, well, you haven't been paying attention to the thread.

...snip...

It is not a fuzzy term - that is why we can see that it does not exist. If it did there would be evidence for it existing....
 
Reminds me of this...
https://www.cato.org/survey-reports...are#liberals-are-divided-political-expression



The question does not distinguish between a chief executive (often the face of a company) and regular "executives" (and it's not clear if respondents would make the distinction). Nevertheless, enthusiasm to fire is probably not a good thing.

I have a hunch that the right wing people crying about "cancel culture" also are very much in support of at-will employment which makes it possible.

Yes, it's a problem that employers can upend their employees lives for basically no reason at all, including for off-work comments that have nothing to do with their job.

Let me know when the freaks shrieking about "cancel culture" start supporting labor rights and increasing unionization. Until then, I'll continue to not care about their incoherent complaints.

I agree with your characterization of the failure of libertarianism, which is why it's funny when right wingers complain about the logical conclusion of their chosen ideology.
 
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Well that's the thing isn't it.

Chris Pratt is the star of the 3 of the biggest franchises in Hollywood and he's a conservative but, and here's the key factor, he doesn't spout off random hate and hide behind his conservatism.

It's always the same crap.

"Oh man I got cancelled just being a conservative?"
"Oh you were cancelled for advocating for frugal fiscal policies?"
"Well no..."
"Oh then for arguing to strengthening of traditional social institutions?"
"Well, no not that one either."
"Oh then it must have been strong national defense?"
"No, not that one."
"Rugged individualism?"
"No."
"That time you got in a DUI and were got on camera saying that blacks and Jews were running the world and called the arresting officer a Cuck because his backup was a woman?"
"Yeah that's the one."

The evergreen tweet from 2018:

Conservative: I have been censored for my conservative views

Me: Holy ****** You were censored for wanting lower taxes?

Con: LOL no...no not those views

Me: So....deregulation?

Con: Haha no not those views either

Me: Which views, exactly?

Con: Oh, you know the ones

https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1050391663552671744
 
It is not a fuzzy term - that is why we can see that it does not exist. If it did there would be evidence for it existing....

Of course it does. "cancel culture" is just a buzz phrase for the type of social ostracization that's existed since the dawn of time ( figuratively speaking ) I'm sure if we looked hard enough, we could come up with examples of this type of behaviour in the animal kingdom.
 
Does it shrink her platform?

If it doesn't, then what does being "cancelled" even mean?

And, yes, her no longer being part of a family network on a kid's show limits the number of people who will see her, go "she's cool", and follow her on social media. It especially limits the younger, more impressionable people who will do so.

However, she should be evaluated primarily on work-related duties, not her political views.

She's not been evaluated for her political views. She's been evaluated for saying dangerously racist stuff in public.

There's nothing wrong with objecting to anti-Semitic posts, but let's not attribute to malice what can readily be explained by stupidity.

Does it matter if she's spreading dangerous racist conspiracy theories because she's a racist out of hatred or if she's spreading dangerous racist conspiracy theories because she's stupid? How could we tell the difference? What would the real-world difference actually be?

And since you didn't answer I'll ask again: "Assuming that there actually is a 'culture war', why is objecting to someone posting antisemitism escalating the culture war while posting antisemitism isn't?"
 
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