Canadian raw milk merchant on trial

[technoextreme]

Two dead in seven years.

BFD

DR

Wooo wooo.... You have just hopped upon woo woo train. Congratulations. Your ticket is using statistics in a a way befitting the statement of lies, more lies, and dammed lies. Woo woo. That and if you go back eight years you end up finding five stillborn deaths caused by unpasteurized milk.
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/504_milk.html

Anybody notice that current technology enables a bacteria count on every bucket of milk? So, certify a low count, and sell away!

You too have hopped aboard the woo woo train. Your ticket is not bothering to do any research or else you would have discovered that your idea won't work. rolleyes:
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~ear/milksafe/milksa9.htm

Has Canada also outlawed tobacco and alcohol? They're probably a much bigger burden to the NHS than raw milk.

I would imagine the banning of raw milk is more related to the ease with which disease can move if you use unpasteurized milk.

Oh, and pasteurisation doesn't change the butterfat content anyway. And the whole point of the pasteurisation process is that it's enough to make the milk bacteriologically safe for several days (it doesn't sterilise it), without significantly denaturing the milk proteins. Despite what anyone "would think" without actually checking up. Sheesh, the things people say on the internet. Electrons take on anything....

I found something new. Lactose intolerant people can drink unpasteurized milk?

A few months ago they had a clever segment on one of the NPR shows about this sort of situation. A fellow who wanted to become a for-real Oliver Wendell Douglass (Eddie Albert's character in Green Acres) bought a small farm complete with a couple of dairy cows.
In short order, he was approached by locals who wanted to buy raw milk. He found that it was indeed illegal to sell the stuff; but the owner of the cow could consume all he wanted.
So, he also found that it was the practice in this area for individuals in the community to buy "shares" in the cow, thus assuming partial ownership....

Actually, that is illegal in some states and in other states you may need a license.

 

[Rolfe]

I found something new. Lactose intolerant people can drink unpasteurized milk?

Come again? That sounds impossible to me.

Rolfe.

 

[Travis]

I would imagine the banning of raw milk is more related to the ease with which disease can move if you use unpasteurized milk.

Working in an office or going to a school with central heating and air is a good way to move disease too. Is there a movement afoot to ban that?

I found something new. Lactose intolerant people can drink unpasteurized milk?

Huh?

 

[cwalner]

When I was an exchange student in Spain, we bought both raw and supermarket UHT (the more common steriliztion method in Spain and France over Pastuerization). We would buy about 2-4 litres/week of the raw stuff but about 10 litres of UHT for the family.

We rarely used the raw milk for just drinking. My host mother would use some of it to make Kefir, then boil the rest to seperate the cream and use the milk left after that in milk/cream sauces rather than as drinking milk.

In short, we recognized that drinking untreated raw milk was dangerous, but raw milk was also very useful in making superior quality for other amenities. During the year I was there, nobody in the family got sick from the milk and to my knowledge, nobody in that family ever has. As for most things, a product that does have a potential danger, can be very effecitve if used properly and responsibly.

 

[technoextreme]

Working in an office or going to a school with central heating and air is a good way to move disease too. Is there a movement afoot to ban that?

It's a stupid comparison. You're comparing the prevention of spreading a disease in a manner which is doable as opposed to something you really can't do much for. A better comparison would be making sure all employees wash their hands,vaccines, and many other things.

Come again? That sounds impossible to me.

Yeah. It is. It's just another thing prescribed the mystical magical properties of raw milk.

 

[casebro]

14% butterfat?????? Come again?

4% is standard, and what you'll get from the average Friesian. Channel Island breeds will top that, but 14%???

Evidence?

Oh, and pasteurisation doesn't change the butterfat content anyway. And the whole point of the pasteurisation process is that it's enough to make the milk bacteriologically safe for several days (it doesn't sterilise it), without significantly denaturing the milk proteins. Despite what anyone "would think" without actually checking up. Sheesh, the things people say on the internet. Electrons take on anything....

Rolfe.

From a "flibbetygibbet" site- "Most raw milk is produced from older breeds of cows with higher butterfat content -- around 15-20% and the taste is out of this world."

Elsewhere on the net, Jerseys are quoted as giving double the fat content of Holsteins.

And I've heard that the cows here in San Diego give the 14%.

But the point was that off-the-shelf milk is not just pasteurized and homogenized, it has any butterfat in excess of the local standard (3.25% here) removed. Thereby accounting for the fact that whole, fresh,raw milk has a higher fat content, and different mouth feel and taste.

 

[ponderingturtle]

When I was an exchange student in Spain, we bought both raw and supermarket UHT (the more common steriliztion method in Spain and France over Pastuerization). We would buy about 2-4 litres/week of the raw stuff but about 10 litres of UHT for the family.

We rarely used the raw milk for just drinking. My host mother would use some of it to make Kefir, then boil the rest to seperate the cream and use the milk left after that in milk/cream sauces rather than as drinking milk.

In short, we recognized that drinking untreated raw milk was dangerous, but raw milk was also very useful in making superior quality for other amenities. During the year I was there, nobody in the family got sick from the milk and to my knowledge, nobody in that family ever has. As for most things, a product that does have a potential danger, can be very effecitve if used properly and responsibly.

If you are boiling it you are going way beyond pasturization. Was this just to get unhomoginized milk?

 

[ponderingturtle]

From a "flibbetygibbet" site- "Most raw milk is produced from older breeds of cows with higher butterfat content -- around 15-20% and the taste is out of this world."

Elsewhere on the net, Jerseys are quoted as giving double the fat content of Holsteins.

And I've heard that the cows here in San Diego give the 14%.

But the point was that off-the-shelf milk is not just pasteurized and homogenized, it has any butterfat in excess of the local standard (3.25% here) removed. Thereby accounting for the fact that whole, fresh,raw milk has a higher fat content, and different mouth feel and taste.

So drink half and half that has about that level of butter fat.

 

[Aepervius]

When I was an exchange student in Spain, we bought both raw and supermarket UHT (the more common steriliztion method in Spain and France over Pastuerization). We would buy about 2-4 litres/week of the raw stuff but about 10 litres of UHT for the family.

We rarely used the raw milk for just drinking. My host mother would use some of it to make Kefir, then boil the rest to seperate the cream and use the milk left after that in milk/cream sauces rather than as drinking milk.

In short, we recognized that drinking untreated raw milk was dangerous, but raw milk was also very useful in making superior quality for other amenities. During the year I was there, nobody in the family got sick from the milk and to my knowledge, nobody in that family ever has. As for most things, a product that does have a potential danger, can be very effecitve if used properly and responsibly.

Beside raw milk, most of the reported case of problem are cheese (and raw cream) made from raw milk [in the link above they even cite a recipe change given to the some Hispanic community to use pasteurized milk instead]. Unless your kefir is cooked afterward or the milk is boiled before, it will rpesent the same risk as raw milk (maybe even more since you leave it to fermentation).

 

[Aepervius]

CAsebro, I would like to see some litterature on your 14%. The only reference I saw was a bit lower than ~4% for cows in average. But other completely different species have more fat :

From Wiki :
Nutrition - comparison by animal source

Milk composition analysis, per 100 grams
Constituents unit Cow Goat Sheep Water Buffalo
Fat g 3.9 3.5 6.0 8.0

I found another reference on various breed (Holstein-Friesland, Jersey, Ayrshire and Guernsey) which give around 4% too but nothing as high as 14%.


PS: homogenization as far as I can tell do not change the fat % of milk. It only change the way the fat is organized in the milk, breaking it in smaller physical globule, and those preventing fat to clump together. Pasteurisation do not change the milk fat content either. I dunno for the law on your side of the pond, but AFAIK here there are "full milk" and "full milk with natural fat content" the first one is separated first then recombined together with a fix 3.5% fat, the second one is not and fat can vary from 3.5 to 4%.

I have drunk nearly all sort (raw, half milch, full milch but not the full with natural fat) and I find the raw one disgusting in taste.

 

[pgwenthold]

Back to my comment above, we used to get raw milk when I was growing up. We just bought it right from the dairy farmer. In fact, I remember very clearly driving out to the farm "to get milk." We had a 5 gal and 2 gal jugs that we would fill right from the bulk tank (we had a family of 6 growing kids), and had a milk fridge to store it.

We got it from the farmer because we could pay him less than what we paid in the store, but more than he got from the milk man. It was a win-win for both.

That's why I laugh when I hear about the prices that people are paying for it now. Thank you, prohibition!

 

[Darth Rotor]

Your summation ignores both the 1000+ illnesses

No, coyote, I do not ignore the sick. The sick are also insignificant, volume wise, since

they didn't die and

people get food poisoning and ill from eating a whole passle of foods: some due to allergy, some due to poor handling, some due to other factors.

This is not a big deal. You can stop gnashing your teeth. But then, where's the drama to be had?

Trying to win the crown?

@ techno extreme: your woo of fear is noted. I will point out to you that for centuries, human beings consumed raw milk and, if you look around you, seem to have not died out.

You suffer from terminal fear. I say again, two dead in seven years is insignificant. The average weekend in Houston costs 3-5 lives. Two dead from seven years from milk is paltry, likewise compared to the folks who react to peanut butter and bee stings.

I will send you a full body tampon if you like. Methinks you might have died on the frontier.

DR

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

No, coyote, I do not ignore the sick. The sick are also insignificant, volume wise, since

they didn't die and

people get food poisoning and ill from eating a whole passle of foods: some due to allergy, some due to poor handling, some due to other factors.

This is not a big deal. You can stop gnashing your teeth. But then, where's the drama to be had?

Trying to win the crown?

DR

Surely the point is that the vast majority of the citizens of the USA are forced to drink the ebil pasteurized "homo" (sic) milk. If instead, they could revert to the 1900s when Men Were Free (or at least cheap), they would dying in droves of tuberculosis, diphtheria, polio, salmonellosis, strep throat, scarlet fever, and typhoid fever. But that would be OK because it's Natural. And good for Darwin too.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Surely the point is that the vast majority of the citizens of the USA are forced to drink the ebil pasteurized "homo" (sic) milk. If instead, they could revert to the 1900s when Men Were Free (or at least cheap), they would dying in droves of tuberculosis, diphtheria, polio, salmonellosis, strep throat, scarlet fever, and typhoid fever. But that would be OK because it's Natural. And good for Darwin too.

I think I note some sarcasm, but I'll jump in anyway ...

No so, my friend from the Great White North. See my ETA point to techno extreme about the centuries of people drinking raw milk, making non pasteurized cheese and butter, and it being a valid food stuff.

Sorry, but the entire foaming at the mouth over this is stuff and nonsense. Most people are happy with store bought and very safe milk. All is well. For those who are happy to manage their own risks, leave them the hell alone to consume the glorious and delicious milk right out of the cow.

George Carlin used to rant against the pussification of America. Please tell me it ain't so, Gord, that our brethren from the Great White North are turning societally vaginal en masse?

Say it aint so!

DR

 

[quixotecoyote]

No, coyote, I do not ignore the sick.

Please show me where in this post you mentioned the illnesses:

Two dead in seven years.

BFD

DR

Then we can discuss why we wouldn't expect to see widespread problems with foodstuffs that are currently illegal to sell.

 

[Rolfe]

I should know this stuff. But all I can remember is that 4% is a decent average, and Channel Island breeds have higher butterfat. I don't remember how much, but 14% sounds ridiculous on the face of it. Ayrshires definitely did better than Friesians when I worked on a dairy farm in the 1970s. It used to be a point of pride to make the 4% butterfat target. Now they're advertising the same stuff as "96% fat free!"

But the point was that off-the-shelf milk is not just pasteurized and homogenized, it has any butterfat in excess of the local standard (3.25% here) removed. Thereby accounting for the fact that whole, fresh,raw milk has a higher fat content, and different mouth feel and taste.

You're making my point for me. That's exactly what I was saying. People in the USA seem to be blaming pasteurisation for changes in the milk which are actually caused by other things that seem inevitably to be done to pasteurised milk as well in America. In Britain, butterfat content is not reduced in full-fat milk, and if you want even more you can buy pasteurised "gold top" (Channel Island) if you want. Most supermarket milk is homogenised, but you can still get traditional door-step deliveries of whole milk which is only pasteurised and nothing else. The cream still rises to the top, the lot.

Be careful, if you're talking about pasteurisation, to compare like with like. Whole fresh milk that is merely pasteurised and has had nothing else done to it, with whole fresh unpasteurised milk. Anything else, and all you're doing is bitching about over-processed supermarket product. Seems to me that a campaign for real milk that isn't over-processed (but is still pasteurised) might be in order in the USA.

Rolfe.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Please show me where in this post you mentioned the illnesses:

I read it, I paid attention to it, and I assessed it, over a seven year period, as irrelevant. You claim I ignored it, you fail. You can't read my mind, ya see.

Then we can discuss why we wouldn't expect to see widespread problems with foodstuffs that are currently illegal to sell.

Legality and wisdom in usage are two different issues at hand. There is legal milk you can buy in China that may kill you. There were legal burgers that passed the ecoli bacteria to some people, and it killed them. There are legal peanut butter sandwiches that may cause death if you are allergic to it.

Coyote, see again: two dead in seven years.

Irrelevant.

DR

 

[Fiona]

Well the stuff I linked seemed to say that 95% of food borne illness came from stuff other than dairy products. If milk wasn't mostly pasteurised that would presumably rise but it has an awful long way to go

In England you can buy unpasteurised milk and in Scotland you can't. But that is because we had particular problems which were not evident in mainland europe and they do seem to have a lot more unpasteurised if I judge by the cheese. I have seen in france and spain that supermarkets mostly sell uht and so I have no idea what percentage of milk is not treated this way: and a post above suggests that people treat raw milk at home anyway so I do not think it is easy to get comparative figures

I do know that unpasteurised cheese tastes better to me: and that pasteurised orange juice is just not worth drinking at all. But I do not know if it makes a difference to the taste of milk: I hate the taste of pasteurised milk but have never tasted fresh milk sadly. Some here do seem to say it makes a difference though

I think I would like to have the choice really

 

[quixotecoyote]

I read it, I paid attention to it, and I assessed it, over a seven year period, as irrelevant. You claim I ignored it, you fail. You can't read my mind, ya see.

Good think I never claimed to then. I said you ignored it. That can mean two things. Either I'm referring to maaaagggical psychic powers, or I'm referring to what you'd written. Guess which one was the case.

Legality and wisdom in usage are two different issues at hand. There is legal milk you can buy in China that may kill you. There were legal burgers that passed the ecoli bacteria to some people, and it killed them. There are legal peanut butter sandwiches that may cause death if you are allergic to it.

Yes that's right. Perhaps the milk in China that can kill you should be illegal.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, coyote, I do not ignore the sick. The sick are also insignificant, volume wise, since

they didn't die and

people get food poisoning and ill from eating a whole passle of foods: some due to allergy, some due to poor handling, some due to other factors.

So was the Tomato scare and such wrong as well? It was about the same scale, and it had no deaths.

So with that outbreak what should have been done? Only deaths matter and no one died, so should the CDC and FDA have done a single thing?