Canadian Election

[Segnosaur]

I wouldn't vote for conservatives because I think we should progress socially, not stay the same. NDP is a tad too socialist, and I liked Liberals until I realised that they've had power for too long.

Just out of curiosity, where do you think Canada has to progress 'socially'. (That's a rather vague statement.) Is there some great injustice that needs to be cured that we don't know about, or some great social program that needs to be implemented?

And how much are you willing to give up to get that 'social progress'? Are you willing to put up with higher taxes, government misspending a depressed economy to achieve it? And are you really sure the Liberals and NDP will be all that 'progressive' socially?

 

[tedly]

I really wonder about Mr. Harper. He got into Saskatoon and was asked direct questions about agriculture (from the one reporter in Canada who has an agriculture beat) and he ducked away with a " I didn't come here to speak about agriculture." Then I hear yesterday that in addressing the Toronto board of the Chamber of Commerce that he intends to 'overturn the Wheat board'.

Now 80% of western farmers support the Wheat board -if not 99.99%. About the same number support the Conservatiives. About the only people who don't support the Wheat Board are ideologically driven Free Traders - the kind who believe that a theoretical improvement in a Market that doesn't exist is better than a real advantage in the real world.
If that is what Harper believes in why doesn't he argue it out here. Could you find an audience that knows less about a critical agricultural issue than the TO Chamber of Commerce?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

In the debate, at the end in particular, Harper said something about alt medicine-promoting it!!

If the conservatives win, I'm moving to Alaska!! (#$&# Homophobe woo lovers!

 

[Segnosaur]

In the debate, at the end in particular, Harper said something about alt medicine-promoting it!!

I didn't watch the debate... can you summarize what he said? (Was he promoting homeopathy, etc. or was he promoting alternative delivery methods?)

If the conservatives win, I'm moving to Alaska!! (#$&# Homophobe woo lovers!

Although I am assuming you're joking, I find it ironic that if the "conservatives" win, you will move to a state in a country where even the Democrats are further to the right than most of the conservatives here.

 

[Lavie Enrose]

Does anyone else have any thoughts or comments?

Canadian Federal Political Parties

Research. Think. Decide. Vote.

 

[tedly]

Segnosaur said:

"Just out of curiosity, where do you think Canada has to progress 'socially'. (That's a rather vague statement.) Is there some great injustice that needs to be cured that we don't know about, or some great social program that needs to be implemented?"

one in four or one in five children live in poverty in a country that is rich beyond dreams of avarice.

I believe you live in Ottawa-Hull, a few hundred miles from the James Bay cree. If you slip outside any major city and ignore the part inside the 'burbs ring roads, you find yourself in a third world country, with some rich, and an invisible aboriginal population living in something like Haiti. "Racism" in Canada is mostly directed against the first Nations, but most publicised against minorities and ethnic groups. These are just for starters.

 

[Badger]

Segnosaur said:

"Just out of curiosity, where do you think Canada has to progress 'socially'. (That's a rather vague statement.) Is there some great injustice that needs to be cured that we don't know about, or some great social program that needs to be implemented?"

one in four or one in five children live in poverty in a country that is rich beyond dreams of avarice.

I believe you live in Ottawa-Hull, a few hundred miles from the James Bay cree. If you slip outside any major city and ignore the part inside the 'burbs ring roads, you find yourself in a third world country, with some rich, and an invisible aboriginal population living in something like Haiti. "Racism" in Canada is mostly directed against the first Nations, but most publicised against minorities and ethnic groups. These are just for starters.

Indian affairs budget from http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/March2004/26/c4526.html is approx $5.8 billion.

Registered Aboriginal population as of Dec 31, 2002, 704851. (Population living on reserve is 403337) $/person, therefore is $8228.68 or $14380.03 respectively.

This is a crude way to put it, to be sure.

One of the problems is that any federal money goes to the band leaders, who disperse it to their members. It seems that in Hobbema, Enoch, Tsu Tiina (some bands I'm familiar with) a few members live really well, while the majority .... struggle to make ends meet. Perhaps a better method of getting the $$ to the individuals could be applied.

I don't make the connection to racism. Can you offer me some linformation to support that?

 

[Segnosaur]

one in four or one in five children live in poverty in a country that is rich beyond dreams of avarice.

Although it is unfortunate that some people live "in poverty", the question is what to do about it. Although you didn't explicitely state it, I'm assuming you believe that the social problem of eliminating poverty involves increased governement spending and welfare (as championed by the Liberals/NDP).

However, there are some problems with that line of thought...

First of all, the definition of "poverty" differs according to who you talk to. However, in many cases, the people "in poverty" can still be well off (have a place to live, enough money for food, etc.).

Secondly, there is nothing that indicates that simply throwing money at a problem will make poverty go away. While it may be easy to say "give money to the poor to stop poverty" (and view that as progressing socially), there is no reason to expect it will stop poverty. Higher taxation required to support such handouts may negatively impact the economy, creating additional poor people, with no guarantee that the additional taxes collected will reduce anyone's poverty. People lived in poverty in Ontario under the Harris government, but there were also people "in poverty" under Peterson and Rae (who kept taxation and welfare payments high).

Thirdly, what ever happened to a certain level of personal responsibility? If someone doesn't want to work (and yes, it does happen), should we feel guilty if that person ends up "in poverty"?

Eliminating poverty (especially among children) is a noble goal, but its not a "social issue". It is an economic one. And the conservative ideal of giving money to poor families through tax cuts is just as valid (and perhaps more effective) as giving money to poor families through higher government handouts.

 

[tedly]

Segnosaur said:


" Eliminating poverty (especially among children) is a noble goal, but its not a "social issue". It is an economic one. And the conservative ideal of giving money to poor families through tax cuts is just as valid (and perhaps more effective) as giving money to poor families through higher government handouts."

The social issue is that it is wrong for the next generation of voters to be hungry.

It is difficult to give money to poor families through tax cuts, because they don't ( or shouldn't) pay taxes. The conservative position on fairness is that it is best to give every child a $2000 tax deduction. Anyone who has raised children knows that equal is not necessarily fair. Why not take exactly the same tax expenditure ( i.e. spending revenues by not collecting taxes) and divide it up by the number of kids, and give every kid a $500 (say) refundible tax credit. This is a much more significant benefit to someone making minimum wage <13000 per annum in this province).

As far as government actions in the economy, how about raising the minimum wage?

 

[tedly]

Indian affairs budget from http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/March2004/26/c4526.html is approx $5.8 billion.

Registered Aboriginal population as of Dec 31, 2002, 704851. (Population living on reserve is 403337) $/person, therefore is $8228.68 or $14380.03 respectively.


I don't make the connection to racism. Can you offer me some linformation to support that?

One question about citing goverment departmental budgets is "What fraction of that budget is spent within the city limits of Ottawa/Hull.

About racism - Stegnosaur's question was 'where do you think Canada has to progress socially'. I think we have to recognize that we made a deal with the First People and then reneged on it. The bills are coming due and we can't deal with the people without getting rid of our racist view of Indians.

If you were asking me to provide evidence of my belief that there exists racism towards Indians, I would suggest you tune in to conversations in any bar.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Segnosaur said:

As far as government actions in the economy, how about raising the minimum wage?

No kidding. Alberta still has the lowest minimum wage. How about education too. I found I put myself in a worse situation trying to go to school. The amount of the student loan put me so far in debt that the payments cost more than all my other bills (aside from rent) combined.

Once you are in a hole it's hard to dig yourself out, even while working several jobs at once. If your parents don't help with your education, then it is so tough to get one. I'm so jealous of the kids whose parents helped out any way financially. Even a place to live while going to college would have been nice.

As far as the debate, Harper said he wanted to increase access to alternative health care. It's bad enough people can get funding to go to homeopath school in BC when I can't get any to go to a legitimate college.

 

[Segnosaur]

Segnosaur said:


" Eliminating poverty (especially among children) is a noble goal, but its not a "social issue". It is an economic one."

The social issue is that it is wrong for the next generation of voters to be hungry.

But no party (including the conservatives) really wants to see anyone go hungry. As I've said before, the differences are in how the government wants to try to eliminate the problem. Simply throwing money at the problem through higher social spending won't necessarily eliminate the problem, since:
- There is no guarantee that the money will reach those it is intended for. (Irresponsible parents will exist regardless of how much or how little we give in "social spending")
- It will increase administration costs
- It can lead to a cycle of dependence

It is difficult to give money to poor families through tax cuts, because they don't ( or shouldn't) pay taxes. The conservative position on fairness is that it is best to give every child a $2000 tax deduction. Anyone who has raised children knows that equal is not necessarily fair. Why not take exactly the same tax expenditure ( i.e. spending revenues by not collecting taxes) and divide it up by the number of kids, and give every kid a $500 (say) refundible tax credit. This is a much more significant benefit to someone making minimum wage <13000 per annum in this province).

Poor people shouldn't be paying taxes, but they are.

As for your plan, I'd have no problem giving a per child tax credit (instead of a deduction). In fact it makes a lot of sense. However, I'd still either prefer your plan (tax credits) or the conservative plan (tax cuts) over the Liberal and NDP plans of increased social spending (for example on things like day care.)

As far as government actions in the economy, how about raising the minimum wage?

Problem is, raising the minimum wage may make companies less interested in hiring new people. So, some people will be better off, but a certain number will end up not being able to find work.

 

[Segnosaur]

One question about citing goverment departmental budgets is "What fraction of that budget is spent within the city limits of Ottawa/Hull.

Are you suggesting that a large part of the Native Affairs budget is taken up with administrative overhead?

If so, you might be right, but that is another reason why I prefer tax cuts, etc. over direct spending.

About racism - Stegnosaur's question was 'where do you think Canada has to progress socially'. I think we have to recognize that we made a deal with the First People and then reneged on it. The bills are coming due and we can't deal with the people without getting rid of our racist view of Indians.

What's this "we"? I wasn't involved in making the original deals with the natives.

There are a lot of good things in their culture; however, keep in mind that at some point in time, pretty much every culture got shafted at some point in time.

If you were asking me to provide evidence of my belief that there exists racism towards Indians, I would suggest you tune in to conversations in any bar.

Yes, I agree there is racism towards Natives. (Are you supposed to call them "Indians"? Thought that was no longer an accepted term.) There is also racism towards blacks and jews.

The question becomes whether one party will be better able to eliminate racism than any other. In this case, I don't feel that any one party is any better than the other. While the previous Reform party did have problems with racist elements getting involved (although the problem was greatly exagerated), the policies of the other parties are not much better. Throwing money at the problem, and/or artificial practices (like hiring quotas) are not very efficient can could cause "blowback".

 

[Segnosaur]

How about education too. I found I put myself in a worse situation trying to go to school. The amount of the student loan put me so far in debt that the payments cost more than all my other bills (aside from rent) combined.

Once you are in a hole it's hard to dig yourself out, even while working several jobs at once. If your parents don't help with your education, then it is so tough to get one. I'm so jealous of the kids whose parents helped out any way financially. Even a place to live while going to college would have been nice.

Just out of curiousity, what did you take?

I have to admit, I did receive some student loans, but for the most part I paid for my education by taking part time jobs when going to school and doing coop work terms.

Keep in mind that part of the conservative platform is to revamp student loans to make it easier for students. Also keep in mind that it was the Liberal government who decided to give out the "millenium scholarships", costing billions, which often went to relatively wealthy students.

As far as the debate, Harper said he wanted to increase access to alternative health care. It's bad enough people can get funding to go to homeopath school in BC when I can't get any to go to a legitimate college.

Ok. do you have the exact words? I'm more likely to believe that by "alternative health care" he means "other than government owned health care". (Does anyone know where the leader's debate can be found on-line?)

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Just out of curiousity, what did you take?

I have to admit, I did receive some student loans, but for the most part I paid for my education by taking part time jobs when going to school and doing coop work terms.

Keep in mind that part of the conservative platform is to revamp student loans to make it easier for students. Also keep in mind that it was the Liberal government who decided to give out the "millenium scholarships", costing billions, which often went to relatively wealthy students.

Ok. do you have the exact words? I'm more likely to believe that by "alternative health care" he means "other than government owned health care". (Does anyone know where the leader's debate can be found on-line?)

I took Biological Sciences Technology. I wanted to be a Lab Tech.

Make it easier for students how? Consolidate them without a Co-Signer (I didn't have a co-signer, and had to pay separately on each). I would prefer cheaper tuition and more grants for students with the grades.

So you think Harper meant private health care? I did put in his exact words. He said he wanted people to have easier access to alternative health care. In the headlines they are saying they are against privatization though. So that leaves actual alternative health care like chiros.

 

[Segnosaur]

I took Biological Sciences Technology. I wanted to be a Lab Tech.

Make it easier for students how? Consolidate them without a Co-Signer (I didn't have a co-signer, and had to pay separately on each). I would prefer cheaper tuition and more grants for students with the grades.

Well, I have to admit, I respect you for the course of study you took. (Far too many students take art, or english lit, or other subjects that have no practical application and wonder why they can't get a high paying job right after school.)

And were your loans government-arranged? (If so, I'm suprised that you find them so expensive. Here in Ontario, I know several people who had government loans and they say that they don't really have to pay back a lot each month. It has, however, taken them a long time to pay them off.)

Keep in mind that tuition (and other educational matters) are supposed to be the responsibility of the provinces. As such, the federal government isn't supposed to have direct control over that. (However, also keep in mind that the federal liberals cut a lot of provincial funding.) That big 2.5 billion millenium scholarship that the Liberals put in place could have been better spent.

So you think Harper meant private health care? I did put in his exact words. He said he wanted people to have easier access to alternative health care. In the headlines they are saying they are against privatization though. So that leaves actual alternative health care like chiros.

If he did mean "alternative" in terms of homeopaths, chiropractors, etc. then that's not good. For me, it wouldn't be enough to vote against them (things like the sponsorship scandal are much more important), but I wouldn't be happy over this one issue.

I'd still like to see it in context though. And yes, they've said they're against "privatization", but the problem is, there are so many ways that that can be interpreted... they could be against people paying for their own treatment, but still favour delivery of health care by private companies.