Canadian Election

[Segnosaur]

You know, I've noticed a lot of really disturbing posts in this thread by other Canadians targeting the Conservatives. They make posts attacking the conseratives, that have no basis in reality, without posting any evidence, or with little or no followup when evidence is provided contrary to their statements.

Some examples:
RebeccaBradley: Harper is our answer to Bush, conservatives want to 'immasculate' health care
Eos of the Eons: Conservatives are 'facists', say goodbye to health care
PygmyPlaidGiraff: accusations of racism

All of these accusations were countered with some basic research.

I'd expect these type of cheap shots from the politicians and the media, but I did expect at least a little more thought behind the posts of people on this board. After all, most of us are supposed to be skeptics interested in facts and reasoning. (Its all the more frustrating because I've seen some very good posts by these people on other topics; why is it that when it comes to Canadian politics they have to resort to cheap shots?)

 

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

From: http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/people/house/mpsbo.asp?lang=E&Hist=N
- Percentage of immigrants who are Reform/Alliance MPs : 27%
- Percentage of all MPs who were reform/Alliance: 20%

So, looks like the old reform/alliance party is the most inclusive party for immigrants.

....[/i]

The Reform Party was so inclusive that they hired an extreme group ( HF ,which was investigated by CSIS due to concerns about alleged terrorist activities and hate crimes) to profile people coming through the doors and ensure they did not enter RP conventions.


Look at the 27% of immigrants that are RP of CA; what profile do they fit? I see quite a few Anglo-Saxon names in those that are listed as immigrants.

The only MPs that stand out to support that there is a hint of inclusion are: Deepak Obhrai, Jaffer Rahim, Gurmant Singh Grewal, and Inky Mark


I do concede that the Liberals have had similiar statements by individuals that are as controversial as some in the RP and CA, not all politicians are squeaky clean; I am not naive.

this article in its heading asks

Intolerance in Reform Party: the exception or the rule?

Let's remind Canadian voters about the following people who have made statements that "don't reflect the views of the Reform Party or the Canadian Alliance" :

Bob Ringma from Vancouver Island stating various times that employers should have the right to fire black or lesbian or gay employees, or move those people to the back of the store (to which he got a standing ovation for his comments at a RP convention)

Janice Lim from Mississauga (an immigrant herself)

Art Hanger

Preston Manning on how minorities are destructive to the values of Canadian society

Myron Thompson, an immigrant himself, questioning the wisdom of allowing minorities the rights the majority have.

John Williams talking about minorities being given special treatment (an immigrant himself)

Philip Mayfield, on how the majority should decide what rights minorities should have in common with the majority. Phil also compared the flogging of Muslim women for not wearing a veil with the requirement that men wear jackets in the Parliamentary restaurant

David Chatters and his statements of how it should be a right to disrminate against minorities (My MP until recently)

Jake Hoeppner's warnings of how the sky will fall and how there will be open civil war if Canada's Rights and Freedoms are extended to minorities

Paul Forseth and others, stating various time that minorities and women, and gay school children are responsible for violence perpetrated on their persons.

Jack Frazer MP said "I did not see what I consider to be racist overtones" in relation to an Airborne video in Somalia which showed one soldier saying "We ain’t killed enough ni**ers yet" while a black soldier was being walked like a dog with "I love the Ku Klux Klan" painted on his back.

Herb Grubel, an emigrant from Germany to the U.S. in 1956, then to Canada, characterized Native Canadians as "spoiled children", comparing Native reservations with "south sea island" resorts.




.

 

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Why do you think the CBC should exist? It looses money consistenly, and more imporantly, ratings are really poor. Why should we keep spending money on a network that nobody watches?

nobody watches the CBC?

I watch the news, Hockey, other sports, investigative reports, Comedy shows (This Hour Has 22 Minutes, Air Farce). It's not heaven and it is a cost to the taxpayer, but I like some of the programs. I am one Canadian that appreciates the CBC, and that my tax money and sometimes my time is well wasted.

 

[Bearguin]

nobody watches the CBC?

I watch the news, Hockey, other sports, investigative reports, Comedy shows (This Hour Has 22 Minutes, Air Farce). It's not heaven and it is a cost to the taxpayer, but I like some of the programs. I am one Canadian that appreciates the CBC, and that my tax money and sometimes my time is well wasted.

I think the CBC should be given the chance to run without govt money. I honestly think there is enough there that it could be run profitably once off the govt's teet. I enjoy the CBC but am still against it being run with public money.

Funny though, I don't feel the same for CBC radio. I have far less issue with it being govt supported than the TV station.

 

[Segnosaur]

Look at the 27% of immigrants that are RP of CA; what profile do they fit? I see quite a few Anglo-Saxon names in those that are listed as immigrants.

The only MPs that stand out to support that there is a hint of inclusion are: Deepak Obhrai, Jaffer Rahim, Gurmant Singh Grewal, and Inky Mark

There are other Reform/Alliance MPs from different countries that are definitely not anglo-saxon (Toews)

Also, if you look at the list, many (most?) of the Liberals and/or NDP MPs that are immigrants are also either from the U.S., Britian, or France.

I do concede that the Liberals have had similiar statements by individuals that are as controversial as some in the RP and CA, not all politicians are squeaky clean; I am not naive.

If you concede the Liberals are also guilty, why are you not criticizing them as much as the conservatives?

this article in its heading asks

Intolerance in Reform Party: the exception or the rule?

I looked at the list. While I agree that in some cases the Reformer / Alliance member did deserve criticism, I have doubts about some of the statements made:

- The heads of the reform party actually took action to criticize some of the people who made racist or other negative comments (Unlike Chretien who made no such move when Hedy Fry complained about burning crosses.)

- Some of the criticisms seem based on very light reasoning; for example, Art Hanger was criticized because, when someone asked about getting rid of Asian gangs, etc. he didn't stress that not all asians were criminals. Perhaps because he knew what the persion was asking about and didn't think it needed to be stated?

- In some cases, the "racist" comment is simply a refusal to subscribe to politcal correct policies. For example, some are against putting more money into Native "reservations". Perhaps they feel that way not because they are "racist", but because they feel that it creates a cycle of dependency

I rather suspect that some of the criticisms here are taken out of context, etc. I do know that the media tends to pay more attention to gaffs made by the Alliance party.

 

[Segnosaur]

nobody watches the CBC?

Fine, almost nobody watches the CBC. Ratings are extremely poor.

I watch the news, Hockey, other sports, investigative reports, Comedy shows (This Hour Has 22 Minutes, Air Farce). It's not heaven and it is a cost to the taxpayer, but I like some of the programs. I am one Canadian that appreciates the CBC, and that my tax money and sometimes my time is well wasted.

Yes, they have hockey, but guess what? So do other stations. In fact, I'm sure that either CTV or Canwest Global would be quite happy to fill in. (There is no real advantage to being on CBC.) Of course, the CBC doesn't really play hockey the respect it deserves (prempting games, bad handling of personnel, etc.) But we won't go there....

What about CFL football? The CBC doesn't even bother airing games until after Labour day.

They have occasional specials that get high ratings, but that's about it.

I am one Canadian that appreciates the CBC, and that my tax money and sometimes my time is well wasted.

Goodie for you. But at a billion dollars a year, I think its a very expenisive 'pet project' for you to want supported.

Privatize CBC, let it sink or swim on its own merits. Maybe then they will either get their costs under control, or get more viewers to watch.

 

[Segnosaur]

The Reform Party was so inclusive that they hired an extreme group ( HF ,which was investigated by CSIS due to concerns about alleged terrorist activities and hate crimes) to profile people coming through the doors and ensure they did not enter RP conventions.

Looks like things may not be as cut and dry as that.... See "The Heritage Front Affair" by the Security Intelligence Review Committee:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/canadian/sirc/heritage-front/

Its a big long document, and I'm still going through it, but it looks like much of the linkage between the Heritage Front was from HF people trying to join and influence Reform (rather than the Reform party trying to recruit them), or people trying to embarass the reform party.

 

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Fine, I will criticise the Liberals if thats what you want, do you think I live in a vacuum?:

They have held a majority government for too long and many appear to have become corrupt, and act like they are entitled. THese liberals lack integrity.

Liberals mishandled the gun registry affair (the cost is sickening, and possibly harming personal freedoms, an ongoing debate),

They have overspent on too many special programs like keeping Canada united (contracting out advertising, accounting scandals, making flags, Canada Day funding).


The transfer of power from Cretien to Martin was not democratic.


Leadership on many items has been lacking on the part of liberals.

Martin as finance minister was on board with treaties and helped develop many laws that he circumvented by registering his shipping company with "Banana Republics". Martin opts out of the laws and processes he heled develop; sheesh this man aprears to have little integrity in my view.


The Somalia incident and government officials lacking integrity to accept responsibility for policies. Chronicly underfunding the military contributing to lack of safety for serving soldiers, training to deal with Peacemaking issues.

Perhaps I'll add more as I think of them. THe major thing for me is the lack of integrity of many Liberals. BTW I have never voted for liberal Candidates, ever.

We need a goverment that has integrity, that does not alienate large sectors of Canada. We need a government that brings us together. This is difficult to do (perhaps a practical impossiblity)due to the diversity of this country. I don't obsees so much about the debateable issues, the controversial issues, as people will vary on opinions on all issues where there is not consensus in society.

I am fed up with the NDP and Reform/Alliance/ New Conservative black and white, extreme views. I am fed up with Liberal corruption. But perhaps a minority government would be a good mix. Perhaps an Liberal-NDP govt (as the NDP could be dogged watchdogs) or a Liberal-New Reform Alliance Conservative govt(as Reform can be good watchdogs too for different reasons).

 

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Fine, almost nobody watches the CBC. Ratings are extremely poor.



Yes, they have hockey, but guess what? So do other stations. In fact, I'm sure that either CTV or Canwest Global would be quite happy to fill in. (There is no real advantage to being on CBC.) Of course, the CBC doesn't really play hockey the respect it deserves (prempting games, bad handling of personnel, etc.) But we won't go there....

What about CFL football? The CBC doesn't even bother airing games until after Labour day.

They have occasional specials that get high ratings, but that's about it.


Goodie for you. But at a billion dollars a year, I think its a very expenisive 'pet project' for you to want supported.

Privatize CBC, let it sink or swim on its own merits. Maybe then they will either get their costs under control, or get more viewers to watch.

YOur concerns are valid as a taxpayer yourself, though its not my pet project but thanks for attributing it to me


I was watching game 7 in cup finals tonight on CBC as I don't get any other channel that carries it. I don't get any ABC channels.


I fail to see why CBC can't break even. DO they have a board of governers that don't like the idea of a crown corperation paying for itself?

Perhaps the Canadian market has something to do with why Global or Canwest don't carry NHL games. CBC has to pay ABC for the rights no? ABC pays the NHL the rights to broadcast.

Can CBC not break even on purchasing rights to broadcast in (and pay Don and Ron) by selling advertising spots?

Perhaps I will look over this and see what I can gather2002/2003 Financial Report


operating loss of the CBC before gov't funding is

$1,051,885,000

 

[FFed]

Due to my lack of internet time now, I am hesitant about getting into a discussion, but I thought I would throw in my two cents.

I can't imagine anyone voting liberal in this election. They are corrupt and incompetent. HRDC, gun registry, ad scandal, killing our military. Do people really hate the Conservatives that much that they would reward the liberals with another term? Paul Martin makes me sick.
For what the NDP did here in BC, I would never, ever, vote NDP. I see the NDP as nothing but a one line party. All I hear them talk about is social programs.
I will vote Conservative. I think we should be in Iraq, and I think we should have some more private health care. We do nothing but pump money into a broken system and it does jack squat. I may not agree with everything the Conservatives want, but I will give them my vote. The last thing I want is another liberal government, minority or not.

 

[Segnosaur]

YOur concerns are valid as a taxpayer yourself, though its not my pet project but thanks for attributing it to me

Well, the point of the government is to do things which help either all people (such as defense), or to help the disadvantaged (such as welfare). Since CBC ratings are so low, paying into it certainly isn't helping everyone, and given the types of programs that they usually have (excluding hockey; they tend to have a lot of 'cultured' programs), I don't really think they help the disadvantaged. Its kind of like giving subsidies so that well-off people can go to the opera.

I fail to see why CBC can't break even. DO they have a board of governers that don't like the idea of a crown corperation paying for itself?

That's a good question. They may partly be hampered by greater Canadian Content rules (although if that were really an issue, why don't they show CFL games, perfect 'Canadian content' and often quite popular, right from the start of the season rather than from labour day?)

The problem could also be greater influence by the unions.

Most likely, its a systemic thing... If you know you don't have to turn a profit, you won't go through the trouble of trying to turn a profit.

Some of their shows are just, well, bizarre (things like ballet) and probably loose money just because there are so few people interested in it. In other cases, they may just be very inefficient (I've heard of cases where CBC news sends crews with a dozen people when rival networks send crews of 2 to cover a particular story.)

Perhaps the Canadian market has something to do with why Global or Canwest don't carry NHL games. CBC has to pay ABC for the rights no? ABC pays the NHL the rights to broadcast.

Actually I think the rights are awarded by the NHL on a country by country basis. (I could be wrong though, it was quite a while ago that I read this.) Every once in a while the rights come up for renewal and other networks can bid on them. CTV almost won the rights one time.

I'll have to try to find my copy of "The Boys of Saturday Night" (see: http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/AS...8/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/701-0658868-9176328), which covers a lot of this.

Can CBC not break even on purchasing rights to broadcast in (and pay Don and Ron) by selling advertising spots?

Hockey probably does turn a profit in its time slot. (Some shows like Air Farce probably do too.) The problem is that the network as a whole looses money. (I'm sure that some other networks have time slots where the cost of the show is more than the revenue that it brings in, but they have other shows to balance that out.)

 

[Segnosaur]

Fine, I will criticise the Liberals if thats what you want, do you think I live in a vacuum?:

I don't mind you criticizing the Conservatives, the Liberals, the NDP or anyone else. Its an election, and all parties must be reviewed. Although I (for the most part) support the conservatives, there are things that do worry me about them too.

My chief concern is when the criticism is unfair or unwarranted. (For example, in your list you mentioned that the transfer of power from Chretien to Martin; however, I don't really think that's a problem, since its just the way our political system works.)

Accusations of racism are very serious and can tarnish a party's reputation more than any scandal can; you pointed out problems with racism in the Reform party only, and that kind of implies that its a reform-only problem.

 

[Segnosaur]

Ok, here's yet another thing which might become a minor election issue: http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040605-071301-3491r.htm

Citing privacy concerns, Veterans Affairs Minister John McCallum declined an Air Canada offer of round trip airfare for the World War II veterans to Paris so they could represent Canada at Normandy, the Globe and Mail reported Saturday.

Gotta wonder about the government's actions here... I'm sure that the majority of vetrans would welcome the chance to visit Normandy, perhaps for the last time, and its not like it would cost the goverment anything.

 

[Segnosaur]

Perhaps the Canadian market has something to do with why Global or Canwest don't carry NHL games. CBC has to pay ABC for the rights no? ABC pays the NHL the rights to broadcast.

Can CBC not break even on purchasing rights to broadcast in (and pay Don and Ron) by selling advertising spots?

A bit off topic, but some more info on the CBC and NHL hockey...

Looks like the NHL does negotiate directly with the CBC and/or TSN: http://www.detnews.com/2001/wings/0111/03/wings-334462.htm

A little on the price to broadcast hockey rights: http://temagami.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/19102001/connections/c3.shtml :The bidding process is competitive and there’s no guarantee CBC will win NHL rights....The value of the current CBC contract with the NHL is a closely- guarded secret — especially given ongoing contract negotiations — but is rumoured to be roughly $50 million per year.

And the value of hockey to the CBC: http://www.marketingmag.ca/magazine/current/feature/article.jsp?content=20040517_61611_61611 :
In fact, some reports have suggested that HNIC accounts for up to half of the CBC's annual ad revenues, with the Stanley Cup playoffs alone adding between $50 million and $60 million to the public broadcaster's coffers.

So, the CBC pays a lot for the broadcast rights for CBC, but gets a lot of money in ad revenenue for it. (Nothing suprising there...)

 

[Segnosaur]

Yet a bit more from the Canadian Election....

One Liberal senator has decided to switch parties and support the conservatives: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv.../LAC/20040609/ELECNOTE09/TPComment/Columnists

Liberal Senator Anne Cools, who has long opposed her party's positions on such issues as abortion and gay marriage, announced last night that she will cross the Red Chamber floor to the Conservatives...Ms. Cools, Canada's first black senator, appointed in 1984, is known primarily as a social-housing advocate but has long been considered one of the most socially conservative members of the Liberal caucus... she said it was because Paul Martin's promised review of the gun registry was just "posturing and optics." She also called Conservative Leader Stephen Harper "Canada's hope for change."

A black woman supporting the conservatives? I guess she wasn't told that the Conservatives don't want minorities. [/sarcasm]

Have to admit, its a double edged sword... having people switch to the conservatives like that is a good thing; I just hope her 'socially conservative' policies don't add to the Conservative stereotype for being intolerant.

------------------------

Martin may end up taking some heat for missing Reagan's funeral. (http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040608.wxreagan09/BNStory/Front/)

Have to wonder what's going on here... Yes, he's in the middle of a campaign, but he's missing out on the photo-ops that he'd have being seen with other world leaders. Plus, Martin had made a big deal of trying to improve relations with the U.S. (Looks like he may be backtracking from that, given the negative associations Martin has made between the U.S. and harper.)

-----------------------

Lastly, looks like the conservatives have pulled out in front... (http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=7c65c5b0-4370-4de6-b58e-6ea57eeaf6e6)

Conservatives continue to lead the incumbent Liberals among decided voters 35 per cent to 31 per cent of 600 people surveyed. The NDP has 16 per cent support, the Bloc Quebecois 11 per cent and the Green party is at six per cent....Mr. Harper is statistically tied with Mr. Martin as the person Canadians think would make the best prime minister: Martin 27 per cent, Harper 26 per cent

I have to admit, I am suprised... I never thought the conservatives would have that much success. Are the liberals really blundering that badly? Could the Conservatives be peaking too soon?

 

[Segnosaur]

Yet more from the Canadian election (in case anyone is actually paying attention).

Looks like the NDP is having a few problems in this election: See: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/CanadaVotes/2004/06/09/492459-cp.html

Malcolm Azania, the NDP candidate in Edmonton-Strathcona, made the suspect remarks in an Internet discussion group posting 10 years ago. At the time, he was debating whether Jews were friends or enemies of black people. Azania is himself black.

The Internet message said that, because of their skin colour, European Jews were part of white supremacy...

Didn't Mr. Azania get the memo that its only the Reform people who are allowed to be racist?

I wonder if this will help diffuse the whole "Conservative is intolerant" image, by showing similar problems with other parties.

 

[Badger]

Yet a bit more from the Canadian Election....

snip

------------------------

Martin may end up taking some heat for missing Reagan's funeral. (http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040608.wxreagan09/BNStory/Front/)

Have to wonder what's going on here... Yes, he's in the middle of a campaign, but he's missing out on the photo-ops that he'd have being seen with other world leaders. Plus, Martin had made a big deal of trying to improve relations with the U.S. (Looks like he may be backtracking from that, given the negative associations Martin has made between the U.S. and harper.)

-----------------------

Lastly, looks like the conservatives have pulled out in front... (http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=7c65c5b0-4370-4de6-b58e-6ea57eeaf6e6)


I have to admit, I am suprised... I never thought the conservatives would have that much success. Are the liberals really blundering that badly? Could the Conservatives be peaking too soon?

I think Martin was really stupid to call an election when he did. It seems pretty obvious to me that the backlash in Ontario over that provincial budget, BEFORE the election was announced, would have tipped him off.

Combine that with the D-Day trip to Normandy, and the G8 summit, and it looks like horrible planning to me.

Now, with respect to the G8 summit, him bailing out early really irks me. He's supposed to be there representing the country (not that I think he'd do a good job anyway, but that's beside the point) and participating in ALL of it. I feel cheated as a Canadain, and taxpayer that he thinks getting back on the campaign trail is more important than representing the rest of us!

My opinion is the guy is a buffoon. The sooner he's gotten rid of, the better.

WRT the NDP candidate for Edmonton-Strathcona.....10 years ago in an internet chatroom? I'll cut him the slack. That's a bit too ancient history for me. It ranks low on the muckrakeing scale.

The Conservatives, at this point, are their own worst enemy. The best thing they can do is stick to the platform, and don't get drawn into any "controversial" issues by the media, members of other parties, or whoever else may want to pull their chains. If they can keep their heads up, and keep cool, I think the Liberals and NDP will split the left vote, and the Conservatives may cruise to a large majority.

There's still time for them to implode, but I kind of think Harper has sent a strong word to his candidates to be cool at all costs.

This final run will be interesting to watch.

 

[Segnosaur]

WRT the NDP candidate for Edmonton-Strathcona.....10 years ago in an internet chatroom? I'll cut him the slack. That's a bit too ancient history for me. It ranks low on the muckrakeing scale.

I agree, it was a rather long time ago, and I doubt that the NDP candidate's current views (and/or potential actions) will do anything to promote racism. But, people do drag up comments from Reform politicians that are more than a few years old. Hopefully there will be a level playing field when it comes to allegations of racism or intolerance, and all parties will be scrutinized equally.

 

[Segnosaur]

Ok, here's a weird one... the NDP is actually upset over support given to them by another party...
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/CanadaVotes/2004/06/10/493699.html

The New Democrats are smoking mad and threatening to sue a fringe party over a un-affiliated campaign that advertises leader Jack Layton as Canada's marijuana candidate. The federal party has its lawyers looking at ways to stop the B.C. Marijuana Party from distributing tens of thousands of election leaflets across Canada.

You know, I wonder of the people who put out the flyer could be sued under the federal gag law over spending limits.

 

[sorgoth]

*Sigh* I would vote Green, but some of their policies are starting to worry me, such as the anti GM sentiment, and a possible "Alternative" medicine endorsement...

I wouldn't vote for conservatives because I think we should progress socially, not stay the same. NDP is a tad too socialist, and I liked Liberals until I realised that they've had power for too long.

In short, I want the Liberals to lose this election, then learn that they need to be a lot more honest, and win the next.