Canadian Election

[Badger]

As far as I know, Senate reform is still part of the Conservative platform.

I thought Jack Layton was a bit over the top using the "deaths of homless" line, though his point about the cuts under Martin's watch was a good one. The message was overshadowed by the rhetoric.

Don't know much about the Conservative resignation over the bilinual issue. That was a stupid thing to say, though.

I was wondering what the parties had to say about the Air Canada situation. That'd be interesting to watch them spin it.

Re: the Liberal adds......Mr Martin comes across as an arrogant, butter wouldn't melt in his mouth, type person to me. But then, I can't listen to anything he says, or read anything he puts out without thinking he's lying, as my initial first impression.

 

[Badger]

snip

I actually voted Conservative in the last election, because I was in Joe Clark's riding, and I not only respected him but felt he was our best chance to keep the Alliance out of ONE Calgary seat, anyway. And we won! This time, I'm stumped. Can either vote by my conscience and inclinations (NDP); or else tactically, hoping to keep Stephen Harper's flunky out (Liberal). But after the waste and corruption in the last Parliament, it would really stick in my craw to vote Liberal.

snip

Rebecca, I just read the following on Canoe. It adds an interesting aspect to your comments above. Don't know how true it is, but here ya go....

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Ottawa/Greg_Weston/2004/05/29/477376.html

 

[Segnosaur]

Strange... Badger and I are the only ones posting on this thread. There must be other Canadians around who have an interest in the election. Anyone?

 

[Badger]

Strange... Badger and I are the only ones posting on this thread. There must be other Canadians around who have an interest in the election. Anyone?

Maybe we should just let it die a natural death.

 

[varwoche]

Allowing referendums and recalls? How horrible, allowing Canadians to have more control over government policy.

I've come to believe that referendums are bad. The (US) public is simply too uninformed and subject to manipulation to have direct legislative power. WA state is paying a steep price these days. The one referendum I'd like to see is to put an end to referendums.

 

[Badger]

I've come to believe that referendums are bad. The (US) public is simply too uninformed and subject to manipulation to have direct legislative power. WA state is paying a steep price these days. The one referendum I'd like to see is to put an end to referendums.

I disagree with you in that I think referendums are good.

Sure, the public is uninformed, and subject to manipulation.....now. But if they suffer consequences for their uninformed decisions, slowly they will learn to become more informed.

I support the principle of democracy, even though it'll take a while to get to an optimum situation.

 

[varwoche]

slowly they will learn to become more informed

Too slowly. The voting public is slightly more aware than a tree stump. Assuming you get referendums, let's meet here in 10 years and see what you think then.

 

[Badger]

Too slowly. The voting public is slightly more aware than a tree stump. Assuming you get referendums, let's meet here in 10 years and see what you think then.

10 years isn't enough time.

It took centuries for a semblance of democracy to be invented in ancient Greece. It was not a true democracy, even then.

Societal shifts take time, and 10 years isn't enough time.

 

[varwoche]

10 years isn't enough time.

It took centuries for a semblance of democracy to be invented in ancient Greece. It was not a true democracy, even then.

Societal shifts take time, and 10 years isn't enough time.

10 years may not be enough time for a societal shift. But it may be enough time for you to regret referendums.

 

[Walter Wayne]

Strange... Badger and I are the only ones posting on this thread. There must be other Canadians around who have an interest in the election. Anyone?

I have an interest, but right now I am dumbfounded. I look at the choices and I find myself ... well ... dumb.

I will probably vote for conservative party, but I have to take a closer look at the local candidates. I still habor resentment towards the conservative-reform for getting rid of slow-and-steady Manning for all-flash-and-no-substance Day. The original reform party did a good job of presenting themselves as a party of thinkers, who were willing to do it right even if that meant it took time to get there. Suddenly they decided they needed a celebrity to win an election.

Walt

 

[Badger]

10 years may not be enough time for a societal shift. But it may be enough time for you to regret referendums.

Nah, I'll just move farther out into the country, put up bigger fences, and get some meaner dogs.

 

[Badger]

I have an interest, but right now I am dumbfounded. I look at the choices and I find myself ... well ... dumb.

I will probably vote for conservative party, but I have to take a closer look at the local candidates. I still habor resentment towards the conservative-reform for getting rid of slow-and-steady Manning for all-flash-and-no-substance Day. The original reform party did a good job of presenting themselves as a party of thinkers, who were willing to do it right even if that meant it took time to get there. Suddenly they decided they needed a celebrity to win an election.

Walt

Ya, that wasn't the best move ever. Now, though, they have another architect of the Alliance at the helm.

I'm leery of Peter McKay, though. Based on the machinations of his election as leader of the old Progressive Conservatives, I wouldn't trust him at all. He makes a good pit bull, to sic on opponents, but like a pit bull, you gotta keep him on a short leash and keep an eye on him at all times.

 

[rustypouch]

I admit that I will most likely vote for the NDP, although they are a bit leftist for my tastes.

The Liberals have been in power too long, and seem to be quite corrupt.

I disagree with many of Harper's policies, and there is something about the man that rubs me the wrong way.

Either that, or one of the joke parties...

 

[Badger]

snip

Either that, or one of the joke parties...

Another election slips through my fingers! Some day I'm going to run for the Rhino's!

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Badger, have you considered the alternative? The conservative/alliance people are fascists-I know because I've spoken to some in person. They scare the h*ll outta me, and I'm in the west. Say goodbye to health care if they are running things, they will privatized everything. Oh, and gay people will have the ceiling crashed down on them. Not to mention that poor people are scum to them. You can be drunk hypocrite and get more support than a kid who had to grow up with an ill parent-that kid being poor and not college educated is a heathen to them-lazy-that's why they don't have a college education. The Tories around here say that anybody on social services is a 'parasite' and 'lazy'. We have the lowest minimum wage in the country in Alberta because the 'poor' are 'lazy'. Yeah, I hate the tories for many reasons...add to it that Fundies get favoritism too.

Harper is a harpy, just like Day was.

And the Bloc? Umm...

NDP has been just a whisper around here, I can't see them gaining to take over the Liberals or the Cons.

I just don't know what to do. I look at the "scandals" and "corruption" the liberals are being slammed on and compare them to what the conservatives have done to Alberta. It still does not compare. The liberals still come out smelling like roses compared to the crap pulled around here.

I'm a Westerner, and I feel stuck in the mud. Who to vote for?? ACK!!

 

[tedly]

I disagree with you in that I think referendums are good.

Sure, the public is uninformed, and subject to manipulation.....now. But if they suffer consequences for their uninformed decisions, slowly they will learn to become more informed.

I support the principle of democracy, even though it'll take a while to get to an optimum situation.

I disagree. Referenda have little to do with democracy. The public is often very well informed on the issues, and, as the Charlottetown referendum showed, very suspicious of attempts to reduce complex issues to yes/no questions. In that rather aborted referendum I lived in a town of 80 or so, where 20 people wrote off for a copy of the Accord, and some of them actually read it.
The party that sets the question controls the agenda, and can put out arguments such as 'this accord is the last chance to save Canada.' The vote failed, and oddly enough we are still muddling on.

Imagine referendum questions like 'do you want no new taxes without a referendum?' Likely to get a yes vote, this question assumes that the current tax structure is fair, efficient, and more efficient than new levys that might be more attuned to new ways of life. But you only get to vote yes, or no, when the actual answer is 'That depends...'

 

[Badger]

Badger, have you considered the alternative? The conservative/alliance people are fascists-I know because I've spoken to some in person. They scare the h*ll outta me, and I'm in the west. Say goodbye to health care if they are running things, they will privatized everything. Oh, and gay people will have the ceiling crashed down on them. Not to mention that poor people are scum to them. You can be drunk hypocrite and get more support than a kid who had to grow up with an ill parent-that kid being poor and not college educated is a heathen to them-lazy-that's why they don't have a college education. The Tories around here say that anybody on social services is a 'parasite' and 'lazy'. We have the lowest minimum wage in the country in Alberta because the 'poor' are 'lazy'. Yeah, I hate the tories for many reasons...add to it that Fundies get favoritism too.

Harper is a harpy, just like Day was.

And the Bloc? Umm...

NDP has been just a whisper around here, I can't see them gaining to take over the Liberals or the Cons.

I just don't know what to do. I look at the "scandals" and "corruption" the liberals are being slammed on and compare them to what the conservatives have done to Alberta. It still does not compare. The liberals still come out smelling like roses compared to the crap pulled around here.

I'm a Westerner, and I feel stuck in the mud. Who to vote for?? ACK!!

From googling, I found that Alberta has the 4th highest spending, per capita, in health care, and is first in educational spending, so the canard of "Look what the Conservatives have done to Alberta" doesn't fly with me. I think any problems with front line staff getting the cash and resources they need falls to the levels of management within the respective systems.

I can't vote for the Liberals when they have shown the lack of responsibility, both fiscal and moral, they have displayed. They haven't followed through on any of the promises in the fabled "Red Book" they waved around when they came to power approx 10 years ago, and have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar and/or their pants down many times since then. I won't accept that kind of performance.

Tedly, the future I hope for is a democracy where Canadians can come to some forum, perhaps similar to those on the internet, discuss issues important to them, and vote on the outcomes. I see referenda as small steps along this path. But I do agree with you that "whoever writes the question, controls the vote". This is probably an unreasonable vision, but it's what I hope for anyway.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

From googling, I found that Alberta has the 4th highest spending, per capita, in health care, and is first in educational spending, so the canard of "Look what the Conservatives have done to Alberta" doesn't fly with me. I think any problems with front line staff getting the cash and resources they need falls to the levels of management within the respective systems.

.

Hey, share the results. When was that from? First in educational spending? What kind of educational spending? The only help I could get was for a program that was only 6 months. Anybody on Social Services does not get to go to secondary school of any sort unless they give up all benefits. I didn't have parents who put any money away for my education, so I went $20,000 in debt for two years. The tuition alone for my program was $6,000.00 per year, and that was 10 years ago, it's way more expensive now. Tack on another $1,000.00 for books back then.

As far as Health care goes, things here are getting privatized. Eye exams aren't even covered. I pay for additional private health care coverage on top of my Alberta Health Care Bill. Altogether, that's a few hundred dollars a month for one family.

So, if you like that only the wealthy can get anything, sure things are dandy in Alberta. For me though, it's hell.

So I'd like to know what they are spending money on.

 

[Badger]

Hey, share the results. When was that from? First in educational spending? What kind of educational spending? The only help I could get was for a program that was only 6 months. Anybody on Social Services does not get to go to secondary school of any sort unless they give up all benefits. I didn't have parents who put any money away for my education, so I went $20,000 in debt for two years. The tuition alone for my program was $6,000.00 per year, and that was 10 years ago, it's way more expensive now. Tack on another $1,000.00 for books back then.

As far as Health care goes, things here are getting privatized. Eye exams aren't even covered. I pay for additional private health care coverage on top of my Alberta Health Care Bill. Altogether, that's a few hundred dollars a month for one family.

So, if you like that only the wealthy can get anything, sure things are dandy in Alberta. For me though, it's hell.

So I'd like to know what they are spending money on.

Here's one http://www.learning.gov.ab.ca/FactsStats/basic.asp

and here's another http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/economics/nav02.cfm?nav02=20569&nav01=18056

I understand what you're saying about going in debt for post secondary school. I did too. I looked at it as kind of a mortgage on my future. I had, and still have no qualms about that.

I think the money for both health care and education is being sucked up, mostly, by the respective levels of management in the two systems, and not enough is making it to the front lines.

But, also with respect to health care, medical technology is advancing such that there are more treatments available, and used than there were before. Sure, there's line-ups for the MRI's, but at least there's MRI's to use, rather than other less safe or less accurate methods used previously. This broader base of treatments coupled with higher demand (my pet peeve....emergency rooms full of people with colds, or the flu, or other minor inconveniences) increases costs.

If people want to pay for their own cosmetic surgery, or laser surgery, I say go for it! It takes the pressure of more immediate health care demands.

I do think that people deserve basic health care, but that begs the question "what is basic health care?". I have my own opinion on that.

 

[tedly]

Badger:
" Tedly, the future I hope for is a democracy where Canadians can come to some forum, perhaps similar to those on the internet, discuss issues important to them, and vote on the outcomes. I see referenda as small steps along this path. But I do agree with you that "whoever writes the question, controls the vote". This is probably an unreasonable vision, but it's what I hope for anyway."

Well, okay, but this turfs hundreds of years of developing representative democracy so we wouldn't have to discuss all those issues. How much time do you want to spend on labelling requirements for upholstery fabrics? Water content of edible fats?

Based on the level of discussion I've seen in Hansard, and the level of discussion I've seen on the web I don't like your picture of the future.

If we were to use the 'net I'd go for something like a secure voter ID, that we could use to endorse the candidate of our choice to represent us. At best about 70% of us vote, and the winner gets 30% of the ballots cast (roughly, in a three party plus hangers-on) So 21% of us elect 300 or so MPs.

So what if we let any-one who can get .0007 of the electorate to tie their knots in her string (Apache war chief metaphor) sit in Parliament. Not somebody from your riding, or Province or even ethnic or language group, but someone who has espoused 80 or 90% of your views. I could trust her, and she could read the Act Establishing this that and the other.