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Canada V's USA

Re: Re: Re: Canada V's USA

AmateurScientist said:
I'll beg to differ just a little bit, if you don't mind, Hutch.

At least in my city, we're very grateful to Candians for providing us our best hockey players for our championship college and professional teams. No kidding; we have a great college hockey team and a decent minor league professional team.

The fans love them.

AS

AS, you forget I'm you're next door neighbor down here and am aware of the UAH Chargers and the pros (what league and team name are they playing under this year?) down at the VB Center.
At least they keep the Medical Center busy treating players after the fights that break out every, oh, 6-7 minutes in the minors.... ;) :D :p

But there hasn't been snow on the ground here since I got back in 2003 and let's be honest, if we ever got 2-3" of the stuff, this state would shut down
 
This thread shows the typical ignorance of Canada by Americans and other countries. Heck, someone felt comfortable enough to hack off 1/3 the Canadian population (yes it's over 30 million, not 20 million).

In 1759 the English got tired of the French controlling the St Lawrence (main route into the English Upper Canada - Ontario). The English sieged Quebec City for about 5 months and in a battle that lasted about 1/2 an hour (Plains of Abraham), took all of the French holdings in Canada. The king in France at the time (I'm blanking on his name, this is all off the top of me head), really didn't see much value in Canada and basically abandonned the French there during the siege. The victorious English allowed the French in Quebec to keep their language, culture and laws. I feel this was a mistake (bien oui!).

Canada was populated mostly by English and conquered French by 1776 and had no interest in joining the Americans rebellion against England.

As to why the Americans mock the Canadians and vice versus: The Americans really have no clue about Canada, and could care less, but they think they are profound wits when they use "eh?" in a sentence about Canada and babble on about the snow and hockey. Canadians on the other hand have always had identity and self esteem issues. This is projected through American bashing and insincere politeness shown to American tourists in Canada.

Charlie (who burned the white house down? twice!) Monoxide
 
Until Canada admits that their bacon is really ham, the negotiations for their admittance as our 51st state will remain deadlocked.

And this business about Quebec is just a smokescreen to get us to accept Newfoundland.
 
Rob Lister said:
And we love it when you do it. Sort of like holding a small child's head while he tries to swing at you. It's amusing. :)

And we love to do it back. Kinda like teasing the schoolyard bully, whose all brawn, no brains.;)
 
Luke T. said:
Until Canada admits that their bacon is really ham, the negotiations for their admittance as our 51st state will remain deadlocked.

Actually, it's you chumps who need to figure out that Canadian bacon is really ham. Noboby up here calls it Canadian bacon.
 
Charlie Monoxide said:
This thread shows the typical ignorance of Canada by Americans and other countries. Heck, someone felt comfortable enough to hack off 1/3 the Canadian population (yes it's over 30 million, not 20 million).

In 1759 the English got tired of the French controlling the St Lawrence (main route into the English Upper Canada - Ontario). The English sieged Quebec City for about 5 months and in a battle that lasted about 1/2 an hour (Plains of Abraham), took all of the French holdings in Canada. The king in France at the time (I'm blanking on his name, this is all off the top of me head), really didn't see much value in Canada and basically abandonned the French there during the siege. The victorious English allowed the French in Quebec to keep their language, culture and laws. I feel this was a mistake (bien oui!).

Canada was populated mostly by English and conquered French by 1776 and had no interest in joining the Americans rebellion against England.

As to why the Americans mock the Canadians and vice versus: The Americans really have no clue about Canada, and could care less, but they think they are profound wits when they use "eh?" in a sentence about Canada and babble on about the snow and hockey. Canadians on the other hand have always had identity and self esteem issues. This is projected through American bashing and insincere politeness shown to American tourists in Canada.

Charlie (who burned the white house down? twice!) Monoxide

As usually, Charlie Monoxide is right on the money.
 
KelvinG said:
Actually, it's you chumps who need to figure out that Canadian bacon is really ham. Noboby up here calls it Canadian bacon.

So how come when you order a BLT in Canada, you get a ham, lettuce, and tomato sandwich?
 
Luke T. said:
So how come when you order a BLT in Canada, you get a ham, lettuce, and tomato sandwich?

What restaurant's are you eating at?
 
Re: Re: Canada V's USA

[B}Because it's just too easy. For Americans it's banter, Canadians have deep psychological problems brought on by cold and lack of sunlight. Many Canadians overcome this by wintering in Arizona and Florida.
[/B]

Not like those balmy Chicago winters, eh? (threw in an "eh" for you amusment)

Actually, you should come to Vancouver to vacation for the winter. It's much warmer than Chicago and snow is a rarity. Although, I will concede, you won't see as much sun!
 
lifegazer said:
I'm an ignorant Englander who wants some swift answers to a couple of questions. I wasn't sure whether to post this in history or politics - due to my ignorance. But I guessed that politics was at the heart of the answers I shall be given, so I posted it here.

(1) Why do two countries exist instead of one? (Why isn't Canada part of the USA, or the USA part of Canada?)
... I'm guessing that it has something to do with the French. Could be wrong though!
(2) Why didn't the Canadians want to kick English butt as happened further south in 1776? Due to the French again?
(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?
(4) Would America be stronger or weaker if it accepted Canada into the constitution at this present date?
(5) Why do Americans mock Canadians and vice versa? Just banter, or does it stem from some deep psychological resentment?

Any information that anyone has regarding the division between Canada/USA will interest me.
Cheers.

Oh boy, you created an opportunity for more clueless Canada bashing (see Ed's post for a glowing example)... For that, may a pox be upon your house. ;)
 
KelvinG said:
As usually, Charlie Monoxide is right on the money.

Except for the swipe at Quebec. Frankly, if it wasn't for Quebec, it would be even harder to distinguish the rest of Canada (with the possible exception of the Maritimes) from the US.:p
 
The whole issues just screams for humor and sarcasm (see Great White North and Canadian Bacon). There is such a huge dichotomy while at the same time there are so many similarities. You usually have to be told when somone is Canadian. Unlike our neighbors to the south the culture and idoms are far more similar than dissimilar (not counting the pea soup eaters, la québécoise, but then we have our own mirror in the cajuns). Canadians only need to learn how to propery pronounce the letter "u". Not too damn bad if you ask me. Of course we have our own problems with folks from North Dakota, Boston and the south.

AIU the Canadians and Americans have an unprecedented relationship and the largest unprotected border in the world. I honestly think that the dynamic is a good one and we are stronger seperate than together. I think our differences are sufficient to warrant seperate nations. Vive la difference I say... oh hell... how did so much of that french language worm its way into American culture? There ought to be a law...

To my Canadian brethren I say, let's rendevouz and have some freedom fries.
 
Orwell said:
Except for the swipe at Quebec. Frankly, if it wasn't for Quebec, it would be even harder to distinguish the rest of Canada (with the possible exception of the Maritimes) from the US.:p
It wasn't a swipe at Quebec. I'm half French-Canadian and I'm sure I have relatives that fought and died in 1759 for the French. If the Brits had done a more typical emperialistic job of assimilating the French in Quebec, we wouldn't have the seperatist problems that have been plaguing Canada since the 1960's.

You are correct that Quebec and Newfoundland do give Canada a lot of uniqueness. If Canada would have adopted French as the official language, we wouldn't have the culteral over-kill that we get from the US.

Je m'appelle Charlie Monoxide, et j'suis Canadian!
 
You know what, I would say that only about 25% of the Quebecois are really serious about independence. Another 25% to 30% are on the fence. The rest want to stay in Canada. I'm one of those guys who are on the fence. You know why? Because I get irritated at the Federal government's inability to acknowledge the bloody obvious: Quebec is not a province like the others. This difference should receive some kind of constitutional recognition, which would be a gesture that would greatly help French-Canadians to feel like they're actually a part of Canada. I tell ya, if you do this simple thing, all your problems with Quebec separatism will be over forever.

Oh, and whenever I hear someone say that Canada would have been better off if the french-canadians had been assimilated, I get a strong urge to vote "oui" at the next referendum... And I voted "non" at the last one. ;)
 
Orwell said:
I get irritated at the Federal government's inability to acknowledge the bloody obvious: Quebec is not a province like the others. This difference should receive some kind of constitutional recognition, which would be a gesture that would greatly help French-Canadians to feel like they're actually a part of Canada. I tell ya, if you do this simple thing, all your problems with Quebec separatism will be over forever.
Are you saying Orwell, that by creating 2 classes of Canadians (regular and different), we would achieve harmony in Canada? I've had lots of exposure to Les Quebecois telling me how "distinct" they are. Since I'm half French-Canadian, am I only semi-distinct, like looking through rose-coloured glasses.

If the Brits had done a proper job of assimilation of the French, we wouldn't be having this discussion now. It's the proper way to take over countries and destroy wonderful cultures.

Charlie (One Canada, One People) Monoxide
 
Charlie Monoxide said:
Are you saying Orwell, that by creating 2 classes of Canadians (regular and different), we would achieve harmony in Canada? I've had lots of exposure to Les Quebecois telling me how "distinct" they are. Since I'm half French-Canadian, am I only semi-distinct, like looking through rose-coloured glasses.

If the Brits had done a proper job of assimilation of the French, we wouldn't be having this discussion now. It's the proper way to take over countries and destroy wonderful cultures.

Charlie (One Canada, One People) Monoxide

The recognition that Quebec has a different culture would produce two classes of Canadians? :confused: I don't get it. It would be just a symbolic recognition, and it is obvious to me that Quebec "distinctiveness" would be subordinated to the charter of rights. Legally, I really don't think things would change relative to the way they are now. Different but equal, man, that's all!

Those comments about assimilation really give me the impression that I can't get no r-e-s-p-e-c-t.
 
Thanks for the responses. Interesting stuff.

About Canada...
Do French Canadians hate/dislike other Canadians (and vice versa), and does Quebec want independence? If so, will it ever get it?
 
lifegazer said:
Thanks for the responses. Interesting stuff.

About Canada...
Do French Canadians hate/dislike other Canadians (and vice versa), and does Quebec want independence? If so, will it ever get it?
The short answer is yes. I lived many years in a French/English environment (Ottawa and Ottawa Valley). I had the displeasure to meet a number of Quebecois who had no qualms about telling me their dislikes of English Canadians (especially the Jewish, Native and Black ones). These Quebecois were also totally convinced that ROC (rest of Canada) absolutely hated them as well. The only logical solution was seperation.

If you want to get a good feel for the seperatist movement through an Anglo's eyes, read "Oh Canada, Oh Quebec" by Mordicai Richler.

Orwell, if you're seeking some respect, check out a Canadian Federal Government phone-book. Check the surnames of upper-management (Directors and what-not). Canada loves French Canadians so much, that the majority of senior civil service positions are staffed by them. I have no problem with this.

Charlie (feeling referendumish) Monoxide
 
(2) Why didn't the Canadians want to kick English butt as happened further south in 1776? Due to the French again?
There were a variety of factors but fleeing loyalists were only part of the picture. The following quotes are from

Defining Moments and Recurring Myths: Comparing Canadians and Americans after the American Revolution ,
By: Grabb, Edward, Curtis, James, Baer, Douglas, Canadian Review of Sociology & Anthropology , 00084948, Nov2000, Vol. 37, Issue 4

“The Revolutionary leader, John Adams, estimated that only about a third of the population truly supported the break with Britain, with another third largely indifferent and the remaining third opposed (Shenkman, 1988: 84; Hanna, 1902, Vol. I: 84). Analyses by historians place the proportion somewhat lower, at between 20 and 30 per cent, or about 500,000 people (e.g., Condon, 1984: ix, 20). In either instance, the vast majority of those who opposed the war with Britain appear to have done so passively or tacitly, since estimates indicate that no more than 100,000 moved elsewhere (Smith, 1968; Wood, 1992: 176; Thompson and Randall, 1994: 15; Osborne and Swainson, 1988: 25).”

However not all of these folks remained in Canada

“It is also significant that, of the roughly 100,000 Americans who did leave during the Revolutionary era, more than half, or perhaps 60,000, abandoned North America altogether, many of them returning to Britain, and others moving to Bermuda, the West Indies and elsewhere (Condon, 1984: 1; Stuart, 1988: 23; Noel, 1990: 9; Thompson and Randall, 1994: 15; Bell and Tepperman, 1979: 45; Senior and Brown, 1987; Upton, 1971: 43). This contingent may have included the most steadfastly loyal British subjects of all the emigres. Although speculative, this hypothesis seems plausible if we consider that the Loyalist elite leaders and top bureaucratic officials, most of whom would have been fervent proponents of British ideas and interests, were heavily represented among those who chose not to go to Canada (Bell and Tepperman, 1979: 53; Craig, 1968: 93; Upton, 1971: 44).” (Bermuda sounds not too bad today ;))

The author indicates that another argument has been that Canadians were provided with incentives to remain loyal.

“One basis for Lipset's argument that Canada has always been a more statist society than the United States concerns the British provision of economic assistance to some Canadian colonials, especially during the period spanning the Revolution and the first few decades of the 19th century. British officials at this time did offer forms of aid to Loyalists, military veterans and others, especially in frontier areas. As noted previously, these included opportunities to acquire their own land at little or no cost, as well as free tools, weapons and other supplies to help in the initial phases of settlement (Errington, 1994: 22; Noel, 1990: 34; Duncan, 1976: 51-52; also Harris and Warkentin, 1974: 113-16, 166; Craig, 1963: 7-8, 52).”
However, the author indicates that these giveaways were provided to the elite in society and many missed out.
The other issue is geography, the 13 colonies had an integrated economy and more cooperative arrangements.

(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?

This also has as much to do with the fact that the Crown changed many of its policies after the Revolutionary War. (See the land give-aways etc.)
 
Charlie Monoxide said:
The short answer is yes. I lived many years in a French/English environment (Ottawa and Ottawa Valley). I had the displeasure to meet a number of Quebecois who had no qualms about telling me their dislikes of English Canadians (especially the Jewish, Native and Black ones). These Quebecois were also totally convinced that ROC (rest of Canada) absolutely hated them as well. The only logical solution was seperation.

If you want to get a good feel for the seperatist movement through an Anglo's eyes, read "Oh Canada, Oh Quebec" by Mordicai Richler.

Orwell, if you're seeking some respect, check out a Canadian Federal Government phone-book. Check the surnames of upper-management (Directors and what-not). Canada loves French Canadians so much, that the majority of senior civil service positions are staffed by them. I have no problem with this.

Charlie (feeling referendumish) Monoxide

Oh Jesus, Mary and Joseph! I don't know who the hell Charlie Monoxide has been talking too, but that doesn't come even close to my experience with French-Canadians! Yes, there are some racist french-canadians (but not more than anywhere else), and yeah, some french-canadians like to bitch about the rest of Canada. So what? I'm an immigrant to Quebec, I've been living in Montreal for 16 year now. I have a french-canadian wife. I spend most of my days at an english speaking university and 30% of its students are french-canadians. I have but seldom come across the kind of bigotry Charlie talks about. Most of quebec's younger generation (anglos included) are fully bilingual, and that "hatred" that Charlie alludes is nearly non-existent among the people I talk to everyday. Quebec is, by far, the most "liberal" province in Canada!

Oh, and Mordecai Richler was an old Jewish geezer that was born and raise in Montreal back in the days when French-Canadians were second class-citizens. His writings reflect a kind of nostalgia for that time, when Quebec's economy was entirely between the hands of a small Montreal born English speaking "aristocracy". He never quite managed to digest the fact that, starting in the late sixties, the French-Canadians asserted their place, and took over their province. He was one of those old anglos who never bothered to learn much French (in a province were over 70% of the population speak french) and that looked down upon French-Canadian culture. Mordecai Richler was a good writer, but he was most of all a satirist and a provocateur, and he wasn't truly going for any kind of objectiveness. His points of view are usually very biased against both Quebecers and Quebec society. It's one of the worst places to go if you want a real idea of what modern Canada (and Quebec) is.

Yeah, there are heaps of French-speaking Canadians in the civil service, and that's one of the things that make me like Canada. But still, that doesn't give many Quebecers the kind of recognition they want.
 

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