Canada deports Holocaust denier
- Thread starter CFLarsen
- Start date
gmanontario
Muse
Gr8wight said:
Ernie was being held under a security certificate at the Don Jail...the hellhole of jails in Toronto. Finally the trash has been taken to the curb.
See ya Ernie..enjoy the sights in Germany..
Phrost
The Fighting Skeptic
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2003
- Messages
- 1,653
Gr8wight said:
Ahh. Well then, I don't feel bad that he got the boot.
While I'm sure we'd all like to see woos deported to other countries, we've got to make sure that our devotion to science and reason doesn't go overboard into the domain of the fundamentalists on the other side of the issue.
I find this odd.
I agree the guy is an idiot but should that warrant criminal charges ?
I would think “evolution deniers†should also be charged ?
Simply this is a clear miscarriage of justice. The guy is being deported for doing something totally legal in Canada. Just because Germany have a ridiculous law against holocaust denial he is to be deported to face those charges because his web site is accessible by Germans !!!!
That is a travesty and the Canadians should know better.
Holocaust deniers are held up for ridicule for the inanity they spread. That is conviction enough.
The lame idea that the deniers somehow legitimise white supremacist groups and foment hate against Jews is just stupid. These things happen without “holocaust denial†.. The KKK existed before there even WAS a holocaust !
I am TOTALLY opposed to anyone being censured for this sort of thing. It is quite within your right to question any version of history.. it is even within your rights to be WRONG about your conclusions !
I agree the guy is an idiot but should that warrant criminal charges ?
I would think “evolution deniers†should also be charged ?
Simply this is a clear miscarriage of justice. The guy is being deported for doing something totally legal in Canada. Just because Germany have a ridiculous law against holocaust denial he is to be deported to face those charges because his web site is accessible by Germans !!!!
That is a travesty and the Canadians should know better.
Holocaust deniers are held up for ridicule for the inanity they spread. That is conviction enough.
The lame idea that the deniers somehow legitimise white supremacist groups and foment hate against Jews is just stupid. These things happen without “holocaust denial†.. The KKK existed before there even WAS a holocaust !
I am TOTALLY opposed to anyone being censured for this sort of thing. It is quite within your right to question any version of history.. it is even within your rights to be WRONG about your conclusions !
EdipisReks
Custom Title
i completely agree. my personal estimation of both Canada and Germany went down a notch because of this case.Aussie Thinker said:
Epidimis,
You know I actually think by chasing, banning and arresting these loonies they provide them with a “sort of†legitimisation.
People tend to think..if what they are saying is so wrong why are authorities so desperate to shut them up ?
Years ago I actually looked into David Irving for this very reason. He was banned from Australia for being a denier. My first instinct about Holocaust deniers would have been to dismiss them out of hand but when they get BANNED from coming to the country I had a closer look.
Now at a cursory glance a lot of what he said “seemed†to make sense. Of course a more deeper analysis led me back to my first impression.. Holocaust denial was fringe nutbaggery playing upon some historic vagaries.
The best way to treat these people is to mock them and laugh at them… NOT criminalise them !
You know I actually think by chasing, banning and arresting these loonies they provide them with a “sort of†legitimisation.
People tend to think..if what they are saying is so wrong why are authorities so desperate to shut them up ?
Years ago I actually looked into David Irving for this very reason. He was banned from Australia for being a denier. My first instinct about Holocaust deniers would have been to dismiss them out of hand but when they get BANNED from coming to the country I had a closer look.
Now at a cursory glance a lot of what he said “seemed†to make sense. Of course a more deeper analysis led me back to my first impression.. Holocaust denial was fringe nutbaggery playing upon some historic vagaries.
The best way to treat these people is to mock them and laugh at them… NOT criminalise them !
EdipisReks
Custom Title
yep.Aussie Thinker said:
FFed
Muse
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1109774902929_9/?hub=Canada
Good enough for me. Get the hell out.
Moose
Self-Propelled Road Hazard
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2003
- Messages
- 418
There's two issues involved.
Statements like "I hate all [minority group]s" aren't considered a hate crime in Canada. We do have a tradition of free speech, after all.
However, statements like "kill all the [minority group]s", which advocate immediate violence, do violate our hate crime laws.
It gets blurrier when considering statements like "I'd love to watch a [minority group] die", or holocaust denials.
It isn't clear from the article that the holocaust denials themselves were an issue in terms of his deportation. His "links to neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups that espouse violence" (emphasis mine), are more likely to be the issue here.
Committing significant crimes in Canada (including hate crimes) is one thing that will usually cause a landed immigrant to have his/her status revoked.
The other issue, as I understand it, is that to my knowledge, Canada has an extradiction treaty with Germany.
That means, if German laws are broken (which Zundel has apparently done), and that the death penalty (or other form of punishment Canada considers unethical) is unlikely to come into play, then Zundel can be extradited if the evidence against him is sufficient to warrant a trial.
None of these steps occur summarily. Zundel's right to due process was respected at every step of the way.
Statements like "I hate all [minority group]s" aren't considered a hate crime in Canada. We do have a tradition of free speech, after all.
However, statements like "kill all the [minority group]s", which advocate immediate violence, do violate our hate crime laws.
It gets blurrier when considering statements like "I'd love to watch a [minority group] die", or holocaust denials.
It isn't clear from the article that the holocaust denials themselves were an issue in terms of his deportation. His "links to neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups that espouse violence" (emphasis mine), are more likely to be the issue here.
Committing significant crimes in Canada (including hate crimes) is one thing that will usually cause a landed immigrant to have his/her status revoked.
The other issue, as I understand it, is that to my knowledge, Canada has an extradiction treaty with Germany.
That means, if German laws are broken (which Zundel has apparently done), and that the death penalty (or other form of punishment Canada considers unethical) is unlikely to come into play, then Zundel can be extradited if the evidence against him is sufficient to warrant a trial.
None of these steps occur summarily. Zundel's right to due process was respected at every step of the way.
Harlequin
Kids love clowns
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2005
- Messages
- 383
They've wanted to get rid of this guy for years, but holocaust denial alone wasn't enough to do it.
Basically he was deported because:
a) he is not a Canadian citizen.
b) he was very active with white supremacist groups that are advocating violence.
I'm not sure what the straw that broke the camels back was, but I would think he must have done something fairly recently to merit deportation.
So far, it doesn't appear to have been done to appease our American neighbours. (Listen, is that the sound of a new conspiracy theory cracking out of its shell?)
Basically he was deported because:
a) he is not a Canadian citizen.
b) he was very active with white supremacist groups that are advocating violence.
I'm not sure what the straw that broke the camels back was, but I would think he must have done something fairly recently to merit deportation.
So far, it doesn't appear to have been done to appease our American neighbours. (Listen, is that the sound of a new conspiracy theory cracking out of its shell?)
Gr8wight
red-shirted crewman
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
- Messages
- 1,661
Let's be perfectly honest. Most of these so-called 'Holocaust deniers' do not actually believe the garbage they are spewing. They have discovered it is a handy legal shield behind which they can preach hatred with impunity. Ernst Zundel has spent his entire life promoting hatred, persecution, and violence against Jews. He's been the cause of enough trampling of the human rights of others that I really don't mind if we stub our toes on his a little bit.
Aussie Thinker said:
Just when [maybe] I thought you weren't so bad after all, well, I was wrong.
"lame idea" eh? forget it, you're hopeless.
And I suppose your strong opinion on free speech extends to woos? Are you for allowing tarot card readers, ufo researchers, people who've been abducted, seen ghosts, etc. say and write what they please? Charge money for seminars? And so on?
And what the hell is this topic doing in the paranormal section of JREF?
feh.
I accept that maybe this guys had other issues that warranted censuring but holocaust denial alone is a joke.
Turtle,
Always go with your first instinct .. lol
Did you read what I wrote ?.. I actually think that treating these fools with anything but amused contempt just fuels the fires of anti-semitism etc.
Abso freaking lootly !
I NEVER advocate censuring the woos. However I am dead against any tax money being spent advocating woo or religious stuff but if you want to spend and earn your own money spreading this stuff go for your life.
I do think some consumer protection should be applied though. Someone promising to contact your dead relatives for money should be fined for false advertising and failing to deliver what was paid for etc..
LOL.. Spot on !
Turtle,
Always go with your first instinct .. lol
Did you read what I wrote ?.. I actually think that treating these fools with anything but amused contempt just fuels the fires of anti-semitism etc.
Abso freaking lootly !
I NEVER advocate censuring the woos. However I am dead against any tax money being spent advocating woo or religious stuff but if you want to spend and earn your own money spreading this stuff go for your life.
I do think some consumer protection should be applied though. Someone promising to contact your dead relatives for money should be fined for false advertising and failing to deliver what was paid for etc..
LOL.. Spot on !