Can you really starve to death while eating rabbit?

[casebro]

This study puts the maximal rate of urea synthesis and excretion for a healthy individual at 65mg per hour per kg bodyweight (ballpark). For a 70kg person that's about 110 gms of urea per day, and if you're living on pure muscle protein (which is essentially the case with rabbit meat) then all your energy is obtained via gluconeogenesis and the (protein in) : (urea out) ratio will determine how much lean meat you can usefully utilise for general energy needs.

Before the idiot chimney engineer arrived I'd found a link such a ratio, but no longer can no matter how hard I look If you can do better there's the makings of an answer.

I THIMK that is about a pound per day. Now take into acccount the above study that showed our bodies can adapt to greater percentage pf protein, and also eat liver kidney brain marrow, and I don't see the firm answer has been show here.

 

[mijopaalmc]

I THIMK that is about a pound per day. Now take into acccount the above study that showed our bodies can adapt to greater percentage pf protein, and also eat liver kidney brain marrow, and I don't see the firm answer has been show here.

You keep mentioning consuming the high-fat parts of the animals. Rabbit starvation only occurs when only lean muscle meat is consumes. What you say therefore doesn't negate the possibility of rabbit starvation.

 

[GlennB]

I THIMK that is about a pound per day. Now take into acccount the above study that showed our bodies can adapt to greater percentage pf protein, and also eat liver kidney brain marrow, and I don't see the firm answer has been show here.

Very roughly a pound of wet meat is what I calculate too.

Dietary protein is some 16% by weight N, it appears.
Urea (NH2-O-NH2) is 58% by weight N, making a 3.5:1 ratio of protein:urea (which corresponds pretty well to the 3.?:1 I think I read in my 'lost link' earlier)

At 110gm max urea production per day for an average adult that would be about 400 gm dry protein, or 800 gm meat assuming 50% protein by weight in the meat. Over a lb, but then I've ignored a 'fudge-factor' of 0.75 in that urea figure. Variable bodyweight. Whatever. Ballpark.

Calorie tables for rabbit meat suggest 175 cals per 3oz, 795 cals per lb, and so on, so 800g daily rabbit meat (the urea limit) provides about 1400 cals (pretty much as has been quoted before), leaving us well in the starvation zone at the best of times and in deep trouble if we're working hard to survive in cold conditions. But it's a little worse than that, as the process of converting protein to energy is pretty inefficient (this was mentioned upthread).

It seems to me that the concept of 'rabbit starvation' is well supported by the evidence, both technical and anecdotal.

p.s. my previous comments about eating plenty of rabbit organs was facetious. Those organs are tiny - have a look next time you gut a rabbit - and you'd need to work your socks off to catch enough rabbits, probably negating the benefits of the organ meat. Probably better to trap a wolf and eat its organs

 

[casebro]

Very roughly a pound of wet meat is what I calculate too.

Dietary protein is some 16% by weight N, it appears.
Urea (NH2-O-NH2) is 58% by weight N, making a 3.5:1 ratio of protein:urea (which corresponds pretty well to the 3.?:1 I think I read in my 'lost link' earlier)

At 110gm max urea production per day for an average adult that would be about 400 gm dry protein, or 800 gm meat assuming 50% protein by weight in the meat. Over a lb, but then I've ignored a 'fudge-factor' of 0.75 in that urea figure. Variable bodyweight. Whatever. Ballpark.

Calorie tables for rabbit meat suggest 175 cals per 3oz, 795 cals per lb, and so on, so 800g daily rabbit meat (the urea limit) provides about 1400 cals (pretty much as has been quoted before), leaving us well in the starvation zone at the best of times and in deep trouble if we're working hard to survive in cold conditions. But it's a little worse than that, as the process of converting protein to energy is pretty inefficient (this was mentioned upthread).

It seems to me that the concept of 'rabbit starvation' is well supported by the evidence, both technical and anecdotal.

p.s. my previous comments about eating plenty of rabbit organs was facetious. Those organs are tiny - have a look next time you gut a rabbit - and you'd need to work your socks off to catch enough rabbits, probably negating the benefits of the organ meat. Probably better to trap a wolf and eat its organs

It's been a while since I cleaned a rabbit, but I recall a pretty large liver. Face it, they must store some fat somewhere, it must be in the liver.

The liver weighs about 60grams in domestic rabbits. About a kilo of 'meat', so ummm maybe 10-15% of calories in the liver? With quite likely enough fat to stand off the umm was it "caribou sickness' from eating strictly muscle meat?

So I'm thinking "rabbit starvation" would depend on whether, like wild carnivores, you eat the organ meats or not. They go for the liver first. And kidneys of many animals, due to the attached adrenal glands, are veritably fountains of vitamin C. Dunno from rabbits.

 

[Myriad]

I heard a completely different version of this. That you would starve to death from eating only rabbits, if you had to catch the rabbits, even if you could run fast enough to do so. Just from basic net calorie deficiency.

 

[CapelDodger]

A rabbit chopped up (bone in) with carrots, parsnips and onions, a bit of salt and pepper - hmmm - my granddad used to make that from roadkill or shooting. Dipping fresh bread and butter into the stock was the nicest bit.

Braised rabbit in gravy and, as you so rightly say, the dipping of the bread and butter. A mug of cider to go with. A peasant life has its moments.

Try slightly caramelising the carrots, parsnip and onions to bring out their sweetness, and need I mention garlic? Or should that be taken as read? I do hope so ...

 

[CapelDodger]

I heard a completely different version of this. That you would starve to death from eating only rabbits, if you had to catch the rabbits, even if you could run fast enough to do so. Just from basic net calorie deficiency.

The legend derives from French trappers in Canada. Trappers. Much paddling, not so much running, but all the same chasing a dream till they suddenly dropped dead.

Another different version involves the English creating the myth to cover their own murder and consumption of French trappers. I'm no fan of the English myself, but I don't buy it.

 

[GlennB]

It's been a while since I cleaned a rabbit, but I recall a pretty large liver. Face it, they must store some fat somewhere, it must be in the liver.

"it must be in the liver" Why must it?

Liver is a classic low-fat food, typically <5% fat. A fatty liver is a diseased liver.

Further (rather long) reading on the whole business of 'rabbit starvation' and the difficulties of living on a pure meat diet, especially in demanding cold conditions, in this paper. The authors note that, at the worst of times, hunters would discard hunted animals (caribou and the like) that were found to be too lean.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

"it must be in the liver" Why must it?

Liver is a classic low-fat food, typically <5% fat. A fatty liver is a diseased liver.

Further (rather long) reading on the whole business of 'rabbit starvation' and the difficulties of living on a pure meat diet, especially in demanding cold conditions, in this paper. The authors note that, at the worst of times, hunters would discard hunted animals (caribou and the like) that were found to be too lean.

This references puts fat at 30% of the calories in rabbit liver.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/generic-rabbit-liver-30073743

 

[Brian-M]

It seems to me that the expression "rabbit starvation" is a misnomer, because it doesn't actually refer to starvation. Perhaps "rabbit toxicity" would be more accurate.

Or we could just call it protein poisoning, because it doesn't apply solely to rabbits.

 

[GlennB]

This references puts fat at 30% of the calories in rabbit liver.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/generic-rabbit-liver-30073743

Of the calories, fair enough (though I wonder if that applies to emaciated wild rabbits at the end of winter or just farmed rabbits? Whatever.). I make that ~50kcals in fat and carbs per ~1.5 livers, based on casebro's figure for the weight of a rabbit liver above. Assuming a modest target of 3000kcals/day for our heroes that makes ~90 rabbit livers per day per person by my calculations.

Of course it isn't that simple as the protein in the liver makes a contribution, so call it 40 livers per person per day? Is it even possible to catch that many rabbits in a day?

It also raises the question of why those old hunters and trappers didn't just stuff themselves with liver from caribou etc. It's gotta be more efficient that catching endless bunnies.

 

[casebro]

.......

It also raises the question of why those old hunters and trappers didn't just stuff themselves with liver from caribou etc. It's gotta be more efficient that catching endless bunnies.

That is the problem with these old wive's tales- no back ground.


The gist of the converstaion here so far is that MAYBE a muscle meat only diet is only good for a short time. But there are no serious facts presented, only the mention of IIRC "caribou sickness".

So, I suggest that if you are ever in an animal only situation, you examine the carcass a bit closer than you would at your local grocer's meat display. Go for the organ meats, brains, large animals have big marrow. Tongues are very fatty. Check for suet, the internal pockets of fat around the kidneys. Supplement with whatever the critters eat too- dried berries (Craisnins?) lichen off the rocks, the cambium layer under three bark, bugs, grubs, lizards and snakes.........

Every looked at coyote droppings? The eat a high percentage of Rabbit in their diets. They crunch up the whole thing, then pass out the hair and bone bits.

 

[GlennB]

That is the problem with these old wive's tales- no back ground.

I thought I had provided quite a lot of background, including scientific studies. Oh well.

The gist of the converstaion here so far is that MAYBE a muscle meat only diet is only good for a short time. But there are no serious facts presented, only the mention of IIRC "caribou sickness".

See the first academic study I linked on max urea production and excretion.

So, I suggest that if you are ever in an animal only situation, you examine the carcass a bit closer than you would at your local grocer's meat display. Go for the organ meats, brains, large animals have big marrow. Tongues are very fatty. Check for suet, the internal pockets of fat around the kidneys.

Exactly what I would do, and one of the first (slightly facetious) things I said. Good luck picking the tongues and suet out of 40 or 50 rabbits per day.

If you'd read the last article I linked you'd note that the target animals (ungulates) were themselves seriously nutritionally stressed by the end of winter and had used up their own reserves of fats, making them close to useless for the hunters. When the target animal is in starvation mode they won't be much use to a human. Except as protein, which brings us full circle as rabbits - even at their plumpest - contain precious little fat.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Every looked at coyote droppings? The eat a high percentage of Rabbit in their diets. They crunch up the whole thing, then pass out the hair and bone bits.

Which means they are also getting a certain small amount of grass in their diet from the rabbit's stomach. (ETA there is a claim that wolves always eat the stomach contents of their prey first and get vegetable matter that way. Believe it or not, whether that's true or not, it appears to be a politically motivated statement. Who has such political motivations: PETA and Vegans).

BTW Is there significant marrow in a rabbit's bones? That would be another source of fat.

 

[shuttlt]

Presumably all this would have been an issue for the Donner Party, the crew of the Essex and other such events?

 

[Psi Baba]

It seems to me that the expression "rabbit starvation" is a misnomer, because it doesn't actually refer to starvation. Perhaps "rabbit toxicity" would be more accurate.

Or we could just call it protein poisoning, because it doesn't apply solely to rabbits.

Les Stroud, AKA Survivorman, talked about protein poisoning in one episode when the first food he managed to acquire was rabbit. He never referred to "rabbit starvation" and made sure to point out that is was mainly a risk if he couldn't find any source of fat. Also, he was catching rabbits with traps, not chasing after them. Survivorman knows how to conserve his energy!

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Presumably all this would have been an issue for the Donner Party, the crew of the Essex and other such events?

Throws a new light on the issue of charging fat airline passengers extra.

 

[Brian-M]

Also, he was catching rabbits with traps, not chasing after them.

I don't think any sane person would bother chasing after rabbits. Trap them, shoot them or dig up their burrow, but not run after them.

 

[Psi Baba]

I don't think any sane person would bother chasing after rabbits. Trap them, shoot them or dig up their burrow, but not run after them.

I wouldn't think so either, but one or two posters had suggested that rabbit starvation would be partially brought about by using up too many calories trying to catch the rabbits in the first place.