Can we control the temperature of Earth?

[Sensation_of_physics]

He corrected it. He meant USB stick.

Then I'm even more confused. I don't know what kind of UBS stick Bjarne use - USB flash memory is not a magnetic storage, so why should they be brought into it?

 

[steenkh]

Then I'm even more confused. I don't know what kind of UBS stick Bjarne use - USB flash memory is not a magnetic storage, so why should they be brought into it?

You are just blinded by all your supposed science! Even a cow on the field knows that magnetic fields are what makes USB sticks work

 

[Bjarne]

In politics and religion, maybe - not in science

And that’s the problem; - take a look at the climate debate
5 years ago the opinions was 50 / 50
Today no politician can more even say they don’t believe in the emotion mainstream.
In that 5 years there have been no new knowledge but only mainstream emotion have changed, because of we see ice melting. This is not science.

You can see Jeppe on the hill drinks 17 beer a day.
He have done that the last 15 years, and it is so terrible so terrible.
But it doesn’t proves why he drinks.
It is not sure it is because the ice is melting.
It could be many reasons.
Maybe because his cow is dead or because Yrsa have left him. Who knows.

Really? Thought the Earth was not due to perish until this fall.

I am not talking about doomsday prophecy, but about statistic facts.
If you believe a ice age not will start soon, tell me 1 single reason why.

……..you claim that we might regulate the climate through changing the magnetic field

Crap...
Rread again,
English >> http://www.science27.com/HS/Index.htm
Danish >> http://www.science27.com/Svensmark/Index.htm
or / and read the previous post.
Its explained 3 times what I mean.

This just demonstrate: how little reliability we can have to people that claims that they are “professional” + run with a half wind, + and in the same mouthful citize something they haven’t read / understood.

No, it is not very strange. We know there is also a correlation between climate and solar wind, and between magnetism and solar wind.

The whole interaction is very complex, and it makes no sense to try and build a thesis based on just one of these interdependencies.

It is not just “complex" Amigo.
It is:

• NOT UNDERSTOOD
• + IGNORED
• + NOT POSSIBLE TO ADAPT to the so-called geo dynamo
• SIMPLY BECAUSE it is >> I M P O S S I B L E
• SIMPLY BECAUSE the deo-dynamo crap is crap, and that's it.

I know this is lost on you, but there is actually a lot of serious research going on these days on climate models.

All what is needed is a right brained person,

• not hypnotized,
• not brainwashed,
• not single tracked
• not one eyed.

But free from dogma and with open inocent mind, free to think what ever he want.

You can rest assured, that if there was any single important correlation, it would have been discovered by now.

Ohh off course I can. .
Notice crackpot and crazy both begins with c.
I only know few none camp follower, fx Niel Adams, a true Hero that don’t care what orthodox scientist want everybody to believe.
You know sometimes the truth is more important, than the risk for getting fetched by the blue car.

Unless you magnetize it somehow, there should be none.

Are you really a “professional” ?
This statement really demonstrate how little you know
Every radiator in the world has a global magnetic field, and plenty of caotic disruptions. (unless it is completely perpendicular to the Earth MF)

No, there would be a single, uniformly distributed field, with field lines originating from the surface near the poles.

Are you really a “professional?”
This statement really demonstrate how little you know
Every radiator in the world has a global magnetic field, and plenty of caotic disruptions.

The exact position of the poles depends on the total field from all the parts of the ball, so if you heat parts enough to demagnetize them, the balance, and hence position of the poles, can change.

Congratulation.
Your educations haven’t been completely wasted.
And Amigo, now you are on the track; and about to find out WHY the Earth MNP moves….Comprendo ?

The question is nearly incomprehensible, but the total strength is not dependent on the position of the poles, but on .. the total strength of the magnetization.

Ohh no , here is where the chain went off, but not only for you.
A ball shaped magnetic field is special, very special, because you will have direct magnetic collision, and exactly that is the main point, and certainly worth to research.
But not single tracked geo-magnetic research (based on brainwash), but based on the good old scientific method, which mean MEASURE everything that is possible, ALSO if a ferro magnetic ball shaped field can produce a dipole field, when combined with heat at the magnetic collision point.
Such experiment is NOT done. And this is nothing less as unforgivable scamped work.

Bjarne
Would the GLOBAL field become stronger when heating the whole ball up to 100 – 200 – 300 - 400 degree.
Hans
No, it would almost certainly become weaker. Some magnetic materials can retain their magnetism even to those temperatures, but it would never become stronger.

Locally weaker yes,
But heat certainly also causes stronger MF, probably in the heating process, but 200% sure when cooling down again.
Simple because heat will cause better global magnetic integration.

If by 'entangle' you mean could the field interact with an external field, then yes, of course it could.

No I mean it entangle with it self. Or in other words that a global field is not perfect integrated. You can create that in several ways, the way you do it is not important. The result is. The Earth is such perfect example.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Are you really a “professional” ?
This statement really demonstrate how little you know
Every radiator in the world has a global magnetic field, and plenty of caotic disruptions. (unless it is completely perpendicular to the Earth MF)

Yes, I'm a professional. Every piece of iron has a magnet field, bit that is because it has been magnetized, if only by Earth's magnetic field. However, that was not what you asked about.

Congratulation.
Your educations haven’t been completely wasted.
And Amigo, now you are on the track; and about to find out WHY the Earth MNP moves….Comprendo ?

Bjarne, I don't think you understand your own questions.

Ohh no , here is where the chain went off, but not only for you.
A ball shaped magnetic field is special, very special, because you will have direct magnetic collision, and exactly that is the main point, and certainly worth to research.

There is no such thing as a ball shaped magnet field. A ball can be magnetized, but it is not essentially different from any other magnet field.

Locally weaker yes,
But heat certainly also causes stronger MF, probably in the heating process, but 200% sure when cooling down again.
Simple because heat will cause better global magnetic integration.

No. There is no mechanism that causes a magnet field to be stronger with higher temperature. What you can do is heat a piece of steel, apply a magnet field, and cool it while in the magnet field. That way you can impress a stronger field than the one you could at normal temperature.

That is exactly the mechanism that allows us to read a recording of the strength and direction of Earth's magnetic field in the past, because magnetic material in the mid-ocean ridges is magnetized while hot, and then cools off and retains a nice recording of Earth's magnet field over time.

No I mean it entangle with it self. Or in other words that a global field is not perfect integrated. You can create that in several ways, the way you do it is not important. The result is. The Earth is such perfect example.

That appears to be gibberish. Please explain what you mean by entangled, in this context.

By the way, your model of Earth (your hollow steel ball) is not realistic. If you have a model of Earth about the size of a foot-ball (that would be a scale of 1:100,000,000), the average thickness of the crust will be 0.7mm. You'd better incorporate that into your ferro-magnetic model.

Hans

 

[Toke]

I wonder why Bjarne is not out measuring magnetic fields around powerlines.
In case AC/DC makes any difference to him there are DC powerlines to both Sweden and Norway under the sea.

I am sure such measurements will be handy when planning the moving of the earth's magnetic field.

 

[Bjarne]

There is no such thing as a ball shaped magnet field. A ball can be magnetized, but it is not essentially different from any other magnet field.

I see you haven’t got the point, but well I didn’t express my self clear.
A solid iron ball off course easy can behave as a beam of iron, and result in a dipole field.
But a iron hollow ball with (thin walls), can’t in the same way created a dipole field, and that’s the only “problem” with a ferro-magnetic based MF theory of the earth..

I would rather say: challenge....
Because all that is needed is to show/prove is that if the Magnetic North is a hot place. – This “opens” the magnetic entrance, - no doubt.

If you’ll excecute a experiment with hollow iron ball you will start with a complete chaotic/disturbed MF.
Now heat up and cools down small local areas - one by one, -.you’ll will see that the MF of that ball will increase, BUT only if the MF power lines DOSEN’T collides. And as mentioned iyt's here the challenge comes in...

You can’t deny that’s the crust of the Earth constantly heat up and cools down everywhere.
Convection from the inner Earth is off course caught below the continents crust and Earth rotation forces hot magma to circulate everywhere below the crust…
It’s certainly very accidentally where the hot heat flow hit, and penetrate.
You also can’t deny that if the Earth was a dipole field, it would be no doubt that the slow random heating/cooling of the crust, in the long run MUST increase / integrate the magnetic field of the Earth.
You also can deny that hence, it is a advantage if the field (MNP) is calm.

So all what you really need is to realize is mainly; - that it is important that MNP is situated over a thermal anomaly. This open the magnetic entrance.
So the simple question is only, can we by experiment, create a integrated magnetic field in a iron ball, (with thin walls) ONLY be use of local heat. (both to keep MNP hot and heat/cool locally)

The answer my friend is definitive YES.

This mean the last argument for a geo-dynamo-model is smashed, and this speculation hence SHOULD be death.- But you know hard cored fanatic brainwashed orthodox, will probably anyway fight to the last to the bitter end, and hence NEVER admit that they were wrong.

Bjarne
No I mean it entangle with it self. Or in other words that a global field is not perfect integrated. You can create that in several ways, the way you do it is not important. The result is. The Earth is such perfect example.
Hans’
That appears to be gibberish. Please explain what you mean by entangled, in this context.

After to have read this post I am sure you’ll understand.
Imaging the day you buy such hollow iron ball, it will have a chaotic magnetic field.

This will remind you of the MF of the Earth (when the Earth goes through period of magnetic chaos, which some times happen).
The steel ball could easy also have 4 MNP + MSP
Now your local heat treatment begins;
When you begin to heat up locally you will discover the (many) MF relocates.
You will also discover that ONLY when you can keep MNP in a hot local place you’ll be able to integrated the MF. - and that's the point...

Also notice the perfect global field , is when all the power lines points excactly to MNP, - But when MNP moves, and most of the wall (crust) is cold, MF powerlines will point to where MNP once where, - Hence the global MF MUST entangle, --This will weaken the global MF.. It will take time before random heat flow again "thaws frozen structures" and re-adapt these.

By the way, your model of Earth (your hollow steel ball) is not realistic. If you have a model of Earth about the size of a foot-ball (that would be a scale of 1:100,000,000), the average thickness of the crust will be 0.7mm. You'd better incorporate that into your ferro-magnetic model

Can’t see the problem…

 

[dafydd]

It seems to have escaped Bjarne's notice that the Earth is not a hollow iron ball.

 

[MRC_Hans]

If you’ll excecute a experiment with hollow iron ball you will start with a complete chaotic/disturbed MF.
Now heat up and cools down small local areas - one by one, -.you’ll will see that the MF of that ball will increase, BUT only if the MF power lines DOSEN’T collides. And as mentioned iyt's here the challenge comes in...

Mmmm, okay, hollow iron ball. With random magnetization. If you heat and cool one place, it will be magnetized by the surrounding areas, so if there is a north pole near, it will create a south pole, etc.

So if you keep on heating and cooling random spots (or in some pattern, I can't see that will matter), you will eventually end up with a lot of magnetic areas that will 'try to' collide as little as possible, and thus you will have very little overall field.

That seems to be the opposite of what you want to have.

Take a bag of magnets (you can buy them relatively cheap at Panduro Hobby), and 'knead' them into a ball. You will find that it has very little overall field, compared to that of the individual magnets.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

It seems to have escaped Bjarne's notice that the Earth is not a hollow iron ball.

He thinks he can look away from the molten core, but of course, he cannot.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Mmmm, okay, hollow iron ball. With random magnetization. If you heat and cool one place, it will be magnetized by the surrounding areas, so if there is a north pole near, it will create a south pole, etc.

Exactly, call this integration.
But be aware a stronger local magnetic field will also cause greater collision, that will disturb and weakening the: local-nabour-MF .
So what you “win” by heating / integrating one place, you will lose, because of stronger MF disruption / collision another place?

So if you keep on heating and cooling random spots (or in some pattern, I can't see that will matter), you will eventually end up with a lot of magnetic areas that will 'try to' collide as little as possible, and thus you will have very little overall field.

Read what I wrote above.
In a ball shaped MF, you’ll will always have a problem when trying to integrate local MF.
UNLESS , you heat up the strongest MNP area….And randomly a united MF will appear. - This is exactly such chaos the Earth goes through from time to time, and that always end us in a united integrated MF again.

That seems to be the opposite of what you want to have. .

No no

Take a bag of magnets (you can buy them relatively cheap at Panduro Hobby), and 'knead' them into a ball. You will find that it has very little overall field, compared to that of the individual magnets.
I didn’t get it..

We are talking about a ball

I am sure experiment can demonstrate it is possible to create a perfect ball dipole magnet, only by simulating heat flows that we know affects the Earth. - So there where in fact no reason to invent the Geo-dynamo..

Think about
You are invited, but bring the ball, or sell it too me.
Somewhat rubbish must be possible to use.

 

[dafydd]

Exactly, call this integration.
But be aware a stronger local magnetic field will also cause greater collision, that will disturb and weakening the: local-nabour-MF .
So what you “win” by heating / integrating one place, you will lose, because of stronger MF disruption / collision another place?


Read what I wrote above.
In a ball shaped MF, you’ll will always have a problem when trying to integrate local MF.
UNLESS , you heat up the strongest MNP area….And randomly a united MF will appear. - This is exactly such chaos the Earth goes through from time to time, and that always end us in a united integrated MF again.



No no


We are talking about a ball

I am sure experiment can demonstrate it is possible to create a perfect ball dipole magnet, only by simulating heat flows that we know affects the Earth. - So there where in fact no reason to invent the Geo-dynamo..

Think about
You are invited, but bring the ball, or sell it too me.
Somewhat rubbish must be possible to use.

Ho-hum.

 

[Toke]

Bjarne,
Your initial post gave the impression of wanting to do something about the magnetic field of the earth.

It would make sense if you had some idea of what to do about it.
Like knowing what influence man made currents have on it.

Why are you not out measuring the influence of man made currents?
I am sure the powerplants could supply you with the right places to go in your rowboat to measure the influence of the DC current going to or from Sweden.

 

[Bjarne]

Bjarne,
Your initial post gave the impression of wanting to do something about the magnetic field of the earth.

It would make sense if you had some idea of what to do about it.
Like knowing what influence man made currents have on it.

Why are you not out measuring the influence of man made currents?
I am sure the powerplants could supply you with the right places to go in your rowboat to measure the influence of the DC current going to or from Sweden.

You do not need very much electricity to create a strong magnetic field.
A small 1.5 battery can give a very strong magnetic field..

The MNP of the Earth has in the past 2500 been moving in a weak conductive magnetic crust area.
This have weakened the Earths MF.
Right now MNP is heading to a possible magnetic are, - a area with good magnetic conductively and thermal heat.

When entering this Magnetic anomaly and so long MNP stays in that area, the MF of the Earth will increase.

Paleo Magnetic data shows that when MNP enters this area, it becomes calm, and stay in the area few thousand years. In that period MF of the Earth increase / integrate.

Maybe MNP is sometimes just transiting the arctic ocean very fast, its not completely clear.
If so, MNP will agian soon end up in a area with bad magnetic conductivity.

When also at the same time the Suns MF is weakening, (this happens right now) we can pretty fast nearly completely lose the Earth magnetic field.

This mean that cosmic rays, more freely can enter the solar system.
Because when the Sun’s MF is weakening the first defence is weak, and hence rays can more easy penetrate the Earth MF when this defence too is weak.

According to Henrik Svensmarks work, and connected with statistic facts (from the past 400.000 years) we have good objective reason to believe that this (right now) could be the highway to a ice age.

What do my idear have to do with that?

Well, I do not claim that we must reproduce / replace the magnetic field of the Earth.
This would be impossible.
BUT I am only saying that MAYBE we can effect the motion of MNP.

Imaging 1 to 10 nuclear Power Station’s in the Northern Greenland, Northern Siberia, Northern Canada and on the ice of the Arctic ocean, and a huge circuit ( I don’t know how thick cable or how many windings) and imaging this would have a diameter let say 3000 km.

The question / experiment is, can we :

• Attract MNP, and determinate its moving direction (can we trap it) ?
• Keep MNP calm in that electromagnetic trap ?

If we can the thermal heat will do the rest.
If not a new ice age will sooner or later be the winner.

Doesn’t matter what we do , - the Sun will anyway (periodically) lose part of it's magnetic strength.
Anyway we must expect that a ice age will affect us.
But if we can control the motion of MNP, just by trapping it, - I will estimate we can prevent the temperature to drop more as 2 degree, instead of up to 8 degree.

When the Earth will lose it’s magnetic strength, I can guarantees you cosmic rays, will have free access.

Yes this will be a expensive experiment.

But remember we are using 70 Billion USD to trace a fantasy-higgs, - that do not exist.
And remember what would be the price for : "losing" Canada, Scandinavia and Northern Russian.

How would the situation be in the rest of the world, in a ice age?

How would the food supply be.

A new ice can start any day

These years could be the beginning

Since 1650 the Sun haven’t been so calm.

We don’t know, it could be few years, 100 year 1000 years, or 85.000 years.

Wake up, the Sun have spoken, take it seriously.
Ignore the orthodox's hysterically brainwash.. Enough is enough.
If you believe an ice age never will return, or not is starting right now, give me 1 reason.

 

[Toke]

Imaging 1 to 10 nuclear Power Station’s in the Northern Greenland, Northern Siberia, Northern Canada and on the ice of the Arctic ocean, and a huge circuit ( I don’t know how thick cable or how many windings) and imaging this would have a diameter let say 3000 km.

I imagine it will have zero effect.

Do you have any measurements or calculations that say otherwise?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Exactly, call this integration.
But be aware a stronger local magnetic field will also cause greater collision, that will disturb and weakening the: local-nabour-MF .
So what you “win” by heating / integrating one place, you will lose, because of stronger MF disruption / collision another place?

No. You must think of the complex of field-lines as a lot of rubber-bands. If you had followed my recommendations and read up on thermodynamics, you might be familiar with the term entropy. In effect the same happens here: The magnet fields will rearrange themselves to the greatest possible balance, which in this case means the most chaotic field.

Read what I wrote above.
In a ball shaped MF, you’ll will always have a problem when trying to integrate local MF.

No. It will be no different from any other configuration.

UNLESS , you heat up the strongest MNP area….And randomly a united MF will appear. - This is exactly such chaos the Earth goes through from time to time, and that always end us in a united integrated MF again.

No.[tm]

I am sure experiment can demonstrate it is possible to create a perfect ball dipole magnet, only by simulating heat flows that we know affects the Earth. -

I'm afraid your fantasies don't change anything.

So there where in fact no reason to invent the Geo-dynamo..

Yes, because we can see by the direction of the field-lines that they originate deep below the crust.

You are invited, but bring the ball, or sell it too me.
Somewhat rubbish must be possible to use.

Do your own homework. If you have an idea you want to prove, do the work yourself. Why should I bother?

Hans

 

[Reality Check]

Flaws and outstanding questions in Bjarne's MF idea

Bjarne has an idea that the Earth's magnetic field is generated by ferromagnets in the Earth's crust and the solar wind.The flaws in this idea are easy to see:

1. The magnetic poles have been measured to be ~5000 kilometers below the surface of the Earth.
   This has been known for 172 years !
2. The solar wind does not change the overall strength of the Earth's MF.
   It has even stopped without any effects on the MF.
3. The crust varies in thickness - the MF does not correlate
   The strength of a magnetic field from a ferromagnetic material depends on the amount of the material. There is less crust under oceans and so Bjarne's idea predicts a geographical correlation between the MF strength and oceans.
4. MF reversals are not explained by Bjarne's idea
   The only ways that I can think of to reverse the MF in his idea are to turn the Earth's crust inside out or to heat it all up to ~800K and apply an external field.
5. Bjarne is ignorant that heat decreases the strength of ferromagnets
   And that is all that happens until the Curie temperature where they become paramagnetic.
6. An abysmal lack of physics and mathematics on his crank web page.
7. What magnetic field is predicted by a ferromagnetic crust model?
   First asked 15 February 2010
   A resounding silence from Bjarne so far.
8. Rocks aren't strongly enough magnetized to account for the observed geomagnetic field
   First asked 16 February 2010
   Bjarne, if you have sources that contradict this please cite them.
9. Sources to support your assertion that the Earth's MF is caused by the solar wind
   First asked 16 February 2010
   The physical evidence is that the solar wind obviously shapes the Earth's magnetosphere. Geomagnetic storms can even influence the Earth's surface over short periods. But when the solar wind varies (or even stops) the overall strength of the MF does not change.

MRC_Hans is dealing with your misconceptions about a hollow magnetized ball that is heated on random areas to produce a weakly magnetized ball.
But I will have another question soon about the speed of your "magnetic collisions" compared to the speed of movement of the magnteic poles.

 

[Bjarne]

I imagine it will have zero effect.
Do you have any measurements or calculations that say otherwise?

No, in this case we are force to experiment.
But this is not strange.
We are also trying to track fantasy particles.

The magnet fields will rearrange themselves to the greatest possible balance, which in this case means the most chaotic field.

Yes this sounds reasonable.
But still you can’t deny hat the many local MF also will relocate. (Excactly like we see when the Earth’s MF goes through a total chaotic period.

Bjarne
Read what I wrote above.
In a ball shaped MF, you’ll will always have a problem when trying to integrate local MF.
Hans
No. It will be no different from any other configuration.

No it will be impossible to create a single dipole MF in a hollow ball shaped object, unless you heat up the MNP area.
If you talk about a solid ball shaped object, its easy to create a dipole MF, but this is not the point.

Bjarne
I am sure experiment can demonstrate it is possible to create a perfect ball dipole magnet, only by simulating heat flows that we know affects the Earth. -
Hans
I'm afraid your fantasies don't change anything.

But you can’t know
I’ am afraid that an ice age could force us to think twice.
The winter we have not is nothing compared to what could come.

Bjarne
So there where in fact no reason to invent the Geo-dynamo..
Hans
Yes, because we can see by the direction of the field-lines that they originate deep below the crust.

As mentioned, this is the only argument that justify the geo-speculation
An experiment to about 100 USD could smash that argument.
Let me also mention, that until now it have been theoretical if the Sun really had “very” weak MF periods.
So fare we mainly only had observation of suns spots 350 years ago to support that.
But exactly today we know it happens, - the Sun is more strange as many thought.
This could very well be a completely new scientific chapter that now is starting.
And this seems to me pretty logical that a lots point to that this is the chapter of the real cause of ice ages.
Not only Neal Adams are, but also Henrik Svensmark are hero’s not afraid the orthodox mainstream contempt.

Do your own homework. If you have an idea you want to prove, do the work yourself. Why should I bother?

I am not busy.
Don't bother if you like winter.
I leave it up to nature and King-Winter to convince man and beast.
I am sure that the geo dynamo brainwash is so well-rooted that even if I am smashing the only argument that support it, I would be ignored and just a crazy crackpot that in the name of the holly infallible science must be ignored. Amen.

 

[Toke]

Imaging 1 to 10 nuclear Power Station’s in the Northern Greenland, Northern Siberia, Northern Canada and on the ice of the Arctic ocean, and a huge circuit ( I don’t know how thick cable or how many windings) and imaging this would have a diameter let say 3000 km.

Bjarne, that is a rather expensive experiment.
Why don't you make some measurements or calculations first?

 

[Bjarne]

Bjarne, that is a rather expensive experiment.

Everything is relative
Compared to what we risk how much we can lose, the cost for keeping MNP stable is peanut’s

Why don't you make some measurements or calculations first?

I need a small hollow iron ball; diameter about 50 to 100 cm. would be great
I am willing to buy such, if it exists. – If you have an idea, and I can use it I pay you 500 USD

To make one would be expensive (for me) because it would require a mould.
So fare I have only thought about to make an experiment to smash the only argument that supports the geo dynamo speculation.
At the same time, and with the same iron ball, it is easy experientially also to show how much electricity and how big a circuit it require to keep the MNP of the ball trapped, when local areas of the iron ball MF change magnetic strength.
Well this is a good idea to check that also,- thank you.

I believe it is possible the keep MNP trapped.
The power station(s) properly do not need to work all the time, but only when it is risk that MNP will try to escape the trap.

 

[Toke]

You could use the container from a household water heater (varmvandsbeholder) it is not quite spherical but I doubt that will make any difference to your ideas.

What about measuring near powerlines?