Can the Republican party be saved?

Trebuchet

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Recently I posted this in another thread where it was off-topic. Minor editing to remove the first and last lines and correct a redundancy.


I come from a long line of Republicans. I proudly wore my I Like Ike button when I was in elementary school. I'd have voted for Nixon in '68 had I been eligible, and did so in '72. Which was a mistake, but I continued to vote for Republicans after.

I didn't leave the Republican Party, it left me.

For the past forty years or so, it's become:
The party of fiscal irresponsibility, repeated tax cuts for the rich generating extreme deficits. Thank you so very not-much, David Stockman.

The party of war. Ok, Nixon inherited VietNam. And lost it. Panama? Granada? Serisously? I supported going into Afghanistan, but they bungled it. Iraq was based entirely on lies. Republican lies. And it's turned out SO very well.

The party of hate. Hatred of gays, hatred of transexuals, hatred of anyone not lily white, hatred of foreigners, hatred of women who don't know their place, hatred of non-Christians. And of the wrong kinds of Christians.

Oh, but it was the Democrats who supported slavery! Yeah, that was 160 years ago. Give me a break. And all those Southern Dems who were against civil rights in the '60's are Republicans now.

Trump is NOT an aberration. He's what the Republican Party has been moving toward for the past 50 years. If you support that party, you support Trump whether you think so or not. And I pity you for it.

I forgot the party of conspiracy theories. Birtherism. Pizzagate. Omar married her brother. QAnon. Hillary's health. Etc.
ETA: And DEATH PANELS!

Oh, and they also hate poor people, while convincing some of them to vote for them.

I'm currently reading Everything Trump Touches Dies, by @TheRickWilson. He's a longtime Republican consultant who hates Trump. It's a frustrating read, because like the poster I was responding to above, he can't see the forest for the trees. He blames Trump, when in fact he's spent years CREATING the kind of party that could nominate Trump. I probably won't finish it.
 
The true problem of the GOP is that it isn't allowed to hit rock-bottom.
Because of clever groups NOT GOP (like NRA, The Federalist Society, the Mercers, the Kochs, and nowadays the Russians, the GOP doesn't get to crash and burn as it would have on its own a while ago.
But without an unambiguous "we can't go on like this", there is no need for the party to re-invent itself.
 
This is largely a ship of Theseus question, a question of how much the Republican Party can change before it can be / has to be rebranded.
 
This is largely a ship of Theseus question, a question of how much the Republican Party can change before it can be / has to be rebranded.
It will have to be rebranded because it is losing membership under its current course. I think the "conservative" cause has more internal contradictions than the "liberal" one - more room for schisms IMO - as the GOP stops pretending to care about deficits or other former hallmarks of their philosophy. I always felt like the Libertarian and religious right wings were somewhat incompatible.

Also the U.S. probably can't exert South Africa-type racial control with a minority white population. De facto segregation is possible but de juris, no, I don't think so. You would need a unity of white purpose and I don't think the U.S. has that. Not that Trump isn't trying.
 
The party of hate. Hatred of gays, hatred of transexuals, hatred of anyone not lily white, hatred of foreigners, hatred of women who don't know their place, hatred of non-Christians. And of the wrong kinds of Christians.


I'm not Republican for many reasons but this is way over the top. Have fun with the "epiphany thread" though! I just love 'em.
 
I'm not Republican for many reasons but this is way over the top. Have fun with the "epiphany thread" though! I just love 'em.

No, it's not over the top. Looking in from the outside, that's exactly what the GOP has become.

As for you not being a Republican? Well... :rolleyes:
 
I'm currently reading Everything Trump Touches Dies, by @TheRickWilson. He's a longtime Republican consultant who hates Trump. It's a frustrating read, because like the poster I was responding to above, he can't see the forest for the trees. He blames Trump, when in fact he's spent years CREATING the kind of party that could nominate Trump. I probably won't finish it.

Much as I like Wilson (Hey, how many greying white Republican consultants can quote Ghostface?), that's a disappointing review. Not knowing his full career, I really can't say how much effect he had at the national level, aside from him helping Guiliani during 2000 (ugh) and McMullin in 2016 (a major improvement). But I do see him as a principled conservative - which to sayt I disagree with him massively on policy, but can still see him as a principled guy, rather than a near-genocidal conman like the idiot in chief, or a power-hungry backstabber like Mitch McConnell.

But I think he, and possibly Amash, are headed to the same view of the GOP that you are - and frankly that black and brown conservatives could have told all y'all back in the Nixon Era. A party that slashes taxes for rich people isn't about "fiscal responsibility", a party that applauds a police state for nonwhite people isn't for "small government". It is, instead, a party that has embraced white supremacism, creating a color-based caste system, inflicting harm on those it sees as "Untouchable" to enrich those it sees as "the Brahmin", and telling those beneath it "Hey, don't we all hate those at the bottom? We're all better than them, aren't we?"

ETA: I just realized I didn't answer the question. Well, it took a century after the thrashing they got in the Civil War before the Dems fully shed themselves of white supremacism, and a century for the GOP to get to this point. A sample size of 2 isn't really significant, so I suppose the sane conservatives could run back - but they have an army of bigots, grifters, and media shriekers (let's be honest, the dems have their own conspiracy theory wing, though they're strapped into the baby seats in the back for now). I expect the way out would be to create a principled, small-government, low taxes for all political party. But such a party would be able to draw not only from GOP folks that are holding their noses, but from conservative minorities that vote for dems because the GOP keeps screaming slurs at them.
 
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No, it's not over the top. Looking in from the outside, that's exactly what the GOP has become.

As for you not being a Republican? Well... :rolleyes:

As if you are even remotely knowledgeable enough to even have an opinion on the topic....:rolleyes:
 
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As a general rule of thumb I agree with Zaganza, except it doesn't require rock bottom. Certainly there is very little motivation for lasting change when at a relative peak of power.

So while I suppose it is possible for a more realistic principled conservative party to emerge, it won't happen as long as a more ideologically simplified anti-whatever-they-do party is still capable of obtaining majorities.
 
The Republican party is not salvageable and should, by all rights, shuffle off to die in a corner. They are the Phoenix Suns of political parties.

Fortunately they are up against the Democrats, who are the Washington Generals.
 
The Republican party is not salvageable and should, by all rights, shuffle off to die in a corner. They are the Phoenix Suns of political parties.

Fortunately they are up against the Democrats, who are the Washington Generals.

That’s fortunate? Wouldn’t you rather work towards something better?
 
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Trump supporters argue, I told Will, that the president may be a little rough around the edges, that his tweets might be over the top now and then, but those things are mostly inconsequential and ephemeral. What matters, they say, is what Trump does, not what he says, and what he has done is advance conservative policies and appoint conservative judges.

Will replied that he hoped Trump supporters are right—but he’s pretty sure they are wrong when they say that what Trump is doing to our culture, our politics and our civic discourse is ephemeral.

Trump’s supporters on the right “misunderstand the importance of culture, the viscosity of culture, and I think they are not conservatives because they don't understand this,” Will said. “Nixon's surreptitious burglaries were surreptitious; that is, they were done in secret because they were unacceptable to the country and once exposed they were punished and the country moved on. What Mr. Trump has done is make acceptable, make normal, a form of behavior that would get a third grader sent to the principal's office or to bed without dessert.” Will argues that Trump’s agenda, to the degree it pleases conservatives, is what any Republican president would have done. “So the question is what does Trump bring that's distinctive?” Will said. “And it's all vulgarity, coarsening, semi-criminality.”

I pressed the point, asking about the concrete, tangible harm of Trump’s conduct.

“The answer is in the terms themselves,” Will replied. “The norms, that is, what are normal and what are normative, cease to be normal. And cease to be normative.” His point is that Nixon, for all his crimes, evaded norms; he didn’t challenge them. He didn’t dispute them. He didn’t degrade them. In fact, he was ultimately done in by them. Donald Trump promised when he ran for president that he would overturn our norms, Will has said, and that’s one promise he’s kept.

snip

The most important of all revolutions, Edmund Burke said, is a “revolution in sentiment, manners and moral opinion.” What conservatives like Will and I believe, and what we think Trump supporters either don’t understand or deny, is the destructive revolution in manners and mores that Donald Trump is ushering in, the enormous cultural and social blast radius of his presidency. Through his promiscuous lying and assault on demonstrable truths, his cruelty and crudity, his coarseness, bullying and dehumanization of his opponents, and his lawlessness and conspiracy-mongering—the whole corrupt, packaged deal—he has brought us into dark new realms.

There was a time when Republicans and conservatives more generally insisted that culture was upstream of politics and in many respects more important than politics; that leaders needed to take great care in cultivating and validating standards of decency, honor and integrity; and that a president who destroyed rather than defended cultural norms and high standards would do grave injury to America. But now Republicans are willing to sacrifice soul and culture for the sake of promised policy victories.


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...ahoo&utm_campaign=yahoo-non-hosted&yptr=yahoo
 
As if you are even remotely knowledgeable enough to even have an opinion on the topic....:rolleyes:

They're being kind. At this point, the GOP isn't "conservative", they're proto-fascist. They've long since given up on democracy in favor of Jim Crow style racial oppression and violence, rigid heirarchy, and authoritarianism (with Dolt 45 as the current, incompetent leader).
 
They're being kind. At this point, the GOP isn't "conservative", they're proto-fascist. They've long since given up on democracy in favor of Jim Crow style racial oppression and violence, rigid heirarchy, and authoritarianism (with Dolt 45 as the current, incompetent leader).

It's a pattern with conservative parties globally that they won't leave space for a far-right party to establish itself, adopting the polices of such a party instead.
 

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