Can the Kerchers and Lumumba unite with Knox and Sollecito against a common enemy?

[Mary_H]

In the wake of the recent acquittals, the media continue to play up the rivalry angle in the Meredith Kercher murder case. This guy, for example, wants to vilify Amanda for blaming “an innocent black man for the murder for which she was accused,” (which is not even factual). ABC and several other sources have reported that the Kerchers are filing a $12,000,000 civil suit against Amanda, even though no suit has been filed. Commentators now are criticizing the Kerchers for something that hasn't happened.

Amanda and Raffaele are not, and never have been, foes of the Kercher family, nor of Patrick Lumumba. Amanda was never Meredith’s rival or attacker, in any way. It makes no sense, then, for the Kerchers and Patrick, or for their supporters or lawyers, to “fight back” against Amanda and Patrick, whether by deriding them in public or potentially taking legal action against them.

Likewise, it makes no sense for the supporters of Amanda and Raffaele to disparage the Kerchers and Lumumba. The police and justice system in Perugia damaged a group of people that included Amanda and Raffaele and their families; Patrick and his family; the Kercher family; and probably even Meredith herself. None of these victims started out as adversaries. If they feel like opponents now, it is only because the system and the press have bestowed those roles on them.

The Kerchers and Patrick haven’t yet been able to realize they are in this together with Amanda and Raffaele. But all of them were played and all of them were used. Can we supporters identify those who really caused the harms and expose how they did it, so that the victims will seek justice from the actual offenders, rather than from other victims?

 

[Kaosium]

In the wake of the recent acquittals, the media continue to play up the rivalry angle in the Meredith Kercher murder case. This guy, for example, wants to vilify Amanda for blaming “an innocent black man for the murder for which she was accused,” (which is not even factual). ABC and several other sources have reported that the Kerchers are filing a $12,000,000 civil suit against Amanda, even though no suit has been filed. Commentators now are criticizing the Kerchers for something that hasn't happened.

Amanda and Raffaele are not, and never have been, foes of the Kercher family, nor of Patrick Lumumba. Amanda was never Meredith’s rival or attacker, in any way. It makes no sense, then, for the Kerchers and Patrick, or for their supporters or lawyers, to “fight back” against Amanda and Patrick, whether by deriding them in public or potentially taking legal action against them.

Likewise, it makes no sense for the supporters of Amanda and Raffaele to disparage the Kerchers and Lumumba. The police and justice system in Perugia damaged a group of people that included Amanda and Raffaele and their families; Patrick and his family; the Kercher family; and probably even Meredith herself. None of these victims started out as adversaries. If they feel like opponents now, it is only because the system and the press have bestowed those roles on them.

The Kerchers and Patrick haven’t yet been able to realize they are in this together with Amanda and Raffaele. But all of them were played and all of them were used. Can we supporters identify those who really caused the harms and expose how they did it, so that the victims will seek justice from the actual offenders, rather than from other victims?

The problem is the police and prosecution are nearly inviolate, and have successfully managed to divide everyone against Raffaele and Amanda. As you yourself have noted, Patrick's impressions of what happened, no doubt fed to him by police in captivity, were reinforced by the community that convicted them and rose at midnight to applaud the original verdict. He's still out there blaming Amanda for the murder to thunderous applause amongst those who bought into it and can't reconsider.

Hopefully that report from a week after the verdict was in error and the Kerchers aren't actually filing a lawsuit, have you seen anything more recent than that?

You're right though in principal, they've a common enemy, the ones most responsible for this debacle, outside Rudy Guede. Even then they could have prevented it with competent police work beforehand.

 

[davefoc]

I suspect not.

It is difficult to understand what is driving the group of people that believe in guilt, but as the presence of Machiavelli in the main thread has demonstrated they are driven and it is hard to imagine anything that will change their minds.

Is there any indication that Kercher's father is not still deeply invested in the notion that RS/AK are guilty? It seems likely that he has been exposed to at least some of the arguments and evidence indicating that RS/AK are innocent. Is there any indication that they have changed his view even a tiny bit. What more could be done?

FWIW, there was a thread around here a few years ago participated in by one of the parents involved in the McMartin school case. Despite very strong evidence that the case was entirely bogus she had developed an amazingly deep seated view that in fact her child was molested by the McMartin school people and she was still seeking "justice". The fact is that people can develop unfalsifiable beliefs and there is just nothing that can be done to change their minds.

Another example that provides a little hope and a cautionary note: The issue of whether the woman that had posed as Anastasia for years, Anna Anderson, was Anastasia or not was answered by exceptionally thorough genetic testing. Anna Anderson was not Anastasia. Some of the people that had believed that the woman that had posed as Anastasia did in fact change their minds and accept the new evidence. Others just ignored the new evidence and continued to believe that the woman that had posed as Anastasia was Anastasia. What is the evidence that Kercher's father is any different than the people that still think Anna Anderson was Anastasia?

And what is the evidence that Lumumba has any interest in truth at all? He seems to be pretty much driven to get as much out of this as he can and any sort of cooperation that doesn't translate to more money for him seems like a long shot from my perspective.

 

[Mary_H]

Thanks, Kaosium and Dave. Dave, my impression is that at the moment, more people believe in innocence than in guilt, and it will probably remain that way, but in lieu of much drama in that, the media might make the rivalry become "the story," which wouldn't be good for anybody except those who are trying to evade their responsibilities for what happened.

I was hoping we could spell out who did what, who they did it to, how, why and what they stood to gain from it. Unfortunately, we don't have enough information yet to know whether Rudy was a police informer who was out on the streets when he shouldn't have been, but there's no reason we can't speculate about it! As I've said before, releasing a guilty man to commit more crimes is severely frowned upon in the U.S., at least. The Rudy piece of the puzzle, then, might involve neglect and it might involve a cover-up, both on the part of the local police.

Kaosium, I don't believe the police and prosecution are nearly inviolate -- we have succeeded at holding many of them up for the ridicule they deserve. We can increase our efforts. No, I haven't seen recent reports of the lawsuit, just recent reactions to the false reports about it.

 

[LashL]

It has happened before that the family of the deceased has come around to not only believe in the innocence of the accused but to speak out publicly about it, but it's not likely to happen if/when they or other parties with whom they align have their own vested interests and are not willing to look objectively at the evidence (or lack of evidence).

Eventually, Ms. Kercher's family may come around but, so far, they've been led down the proverbial garden path by Perugia prosecutors and by their own civil lawyer with an agenda of his own, so it is not going to happen immediately. Eventually, though, it might.

 

[davefoc]

I agree with LashL that the Kerchers might change their view over the long run.

But I think, it also significant that the Kercher family and at least one of Meredith Kercher's friends took part in an orchestrated publicity campaign near the end of the RS/AK second trial with the goal of influencing the jury against RS/AK. That is they not only believed RS/AK guilty they actively worked for their conviction. It would be a difficult step to admit to yourself that you had worked to convict innocent people of murder.

And while I am not so cynical as to believe that monetary considerations drove the Kerchers the fact is that added on to a massive confirmation bias, a massive disinformation campaign by the prosecutor and their lawyer, and the self interest bias of not wanting to admit to themselves that their actions could have resulted in the conviction of innocent people for murder, the Kerchers also have a significant financial interest in the guilt of RS/AK. All that together doesn't bode well for a change of heart any time soon.

 

[Mary_H]

I agree with LashL that the Kerchers might change their view over the long run.

But I think, it also significant that the Kercher family and at least one of her friends took part in an orchestrated publicity campaign near the end of the RS/AK second trial with the goal of influencing the jury against RS/AK. That is they not only believed RS/AK guilty they actively worked for their conviction. It would be a difficult step to admit to yourself that you had worked to convict innocent people of murder.

And while I am not so cynical as to believe that monetary considerations drove the Kerchers the fact is that added on to a massive confirmation bias, a massive disinformation campaign by the prosecutor and their lawyer, and the self interest bias of not wanting to admit to themselves that their actions could have resulted in the conviction of innocent people for murder, the Kerchers also have a significant financial interest in the guilt of RS/AK. All that together doesn't bode well for a change of heart any time soon.

There are probably caps on the amounts plaintiffs can recover from certain entities in Italy, but, with the right information, the Kerchers could sue, say, the police and Stefanoni, and definitely Maresca. That's something that would happen here; I don't know if the culture would support it in Italy.

Some of the parents of the victims in the West Memphis Three case changed their minds about the defendants' guilt. I will have to look into how long that took. It seems to me that the sooner the Kerchers and Patrick come to their senses, the less difficult it will be for them. There is no shame in admitting you have been fooled, once you realize it.

 

[davefoc]

Well Amanda Knox was happy enough to implicate an innocent person. Suppose Lumumba really didnt have an alibi - does anyone really think she would have ever said anything?

Your point as been discussed in great detail in this thread:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7687152#post7687152

You might look over the section of that thread that dealt with Knox's "confession/accusation". If you disagree with the consensus conclusions regarding this I think you would find people there very willing to discuss your views.

 

[RoseMontague]

I believe if the Kerchers are going to come down on the side of family Knox it will be seen in the case going against Amanda's parents. Surely even the Kerchers can see no reason to prosecute a parent that says their child told them they were hit on the head during an interrogation.

The main problem with this is the Kercher lawyer is the same one that represents the cops in the case against Amanda's parents. Perhaps a good start would be for the Kerchers to change lawyers.

 

[Rolfe]

I think Hellmann's motivation report will be crucial here. The Kerchers keep harping on about Massei, and the 10,000 pages of evidence, and how everything was proved in the Massei court. If Hellmann's report explains why the Massei court was a crock of nonsense, and does it well, the Kerchers may notice.

Rolfe.

 

[Mary_H]

I believe if the Kerchers are going to come down on the side of family Knox it will be seen in the case going against Amanda's parents. Surely even the Kerchers can see no reason to prosecute a parent that says their child told them they were hit on the head during an interrogation.

The main problem with this is the Kercher lawyer is the same one that represents the cops in the case against Amanda's parents. Perhaps a good start would be for the Kerchers to change lawyers.

That would be best. Maybe a British lawyer who specializes in Italian law but has perspective because they're not Italian.

 

[Mary_H]

I think Hellmann's motivation report will be crucial here. The Kerchers keep harping on about Massei, and the 10,000 pages of evidence, and how everything was proved in the Massei court. If Hellmann's report explains why the Massei court was a crock of nonsense, and does it well, the Kerchers may notice.

Rolfe.

That's a good point. Maybe Hellmann will really open some eyes.

 

[GreyFox]

Slapping someone until they say UNCLE is the fault of the prosecutor who is drunk with power. Dont blame the victim please. Merideth was a victim of Rudy's botched burglary and Amanda/Raffeal were victims of witch hunt.
Perugia has shown no justice to Britian or America for the crimes against their daughters!
No one should send their children to this country until the few bad apples in this town are prosecuted to the hilt. RIP MK ! The truth is coming out!

 

[Skeptical Greg]

.... Can we supporters identify those who really caused the harms and expose how they did it, so that the victims will seek justice from the actual offenders, rather than from other victims?

If it hasn't been done in the tens of thousands of posts so far, it doesn't seem likely ..

 

[Rolfe]

From Michael at .net

There are a great many people out there that would find it absolutely repugnant should Knox or her family profit in any way from what happened to Meredith... even if it is under the euphemism of 'the Knox's doing so to help pay back their legal debts'. I find it even more nasty, this insidious idea, that the world somehow 'owes' them to help them do so, that they are entitled.

This is a common guilter meme. Even if her acquittal is confirmed by the Supreme Court, she should not be allowed to make any profit from the media interest in the case. Not even to recoup the heavy debt her family has incurred in legal fees and so on. The media may be prepared to pay them thousands or millions, but Amanda and her family should nobly go bankrupt and lose their homes in the name of respect for Meredith.

Meanwhile, in other news, John Kercher's book Meredith to be published by the second largest publishing group in the world.

Her family prefer that proceeds from “Meredith” go toward an Italian remembrance of Meredith which they have not yet defined. They chose this as their goal as Meredith really loved Italy and because Italy is still obviously fascinated with her.

Oh well that's OK then. The Kerchers, who are also reputedly in financial difficulties due to expenses they voluntarily incurred in relation to the court case, will also nobly stay in debt so as not to profit from Meredith's murder.

Get real. Knox and Sollecito are also victims of Meredith's murder, to a different degree certainly, but still victims. When their innocence of the crime is finally confirmed, why should it be at all distasteful for one or both of them to make their own perspective public? And why should people who have been forced to spend a great deal of money through no fault of their own be prohibited from any share in the vast media riches this case has generated?

To a large extent, it's about whose story is allowed to be told. The guilter community wants to prevent Amanda and Raffaele from telling their stories, the better to keep their own false narrative in the public eye. All dressed up as faux outrage that two people who lost four years of their lives through no fault of their own should gain any sort of recompense from that.

I fear very much that the Kerchers themselves are caught up in the middle of all this, and are very definitely on one side. They want to tell their story, while silencing Knox and Sollecito. They want Knox and Sollecito treated as pariahs even though they have done nothing wrong and have themselves suffered greatly. I don't know how the sides can easily come together in these circumstances.

Rolfe.

 

[JREF2010]

If the Kercher's are still being instructed by Maresca, who is infected by Migninni, I don't see how they will be able to get to the unbiased position easily if ever.

The Kercher's were surrounded and deeply connected to the prosecution/police train of thought, so to "switch over" will take much more time and effort. imo... Similar to Amanda and Raffaele coming out of their nightmare shock, it will take a lot of time.

With the threat of the SC and other trials ongoing, it seems unfathomable for Raffaele to have any peace while in Italy. I cant imagine the paranoia that all this would cause.

 

[Rolfe]

Patrick, I fear (who affects that name to imply a connection to a famous man with whom he shares a surname, but to whom he is not related), is only out for himself. So long as he believes that his personal interests are served by supporting the police narrative and demonising Amanda, he'll do it. If there were a serious prospect of gaining significant compensation from the police over being beaten up, he might change his mind, but not otherwise.

Rolfe.

 

[JREF2010]

I think Hellmann's motivation report will be crucial here. The Kerchers keep harping on about Massei, and the 10,000 pages of evidence, and how everything was proved in the Massei court. If Hellmann's report explains why the Massei court was a crock of nonsense, and does it well, the Kerchers may notice.

Rolfe.

That's kind of my stance as a starting point. All I know is media articles saying they are confused from two opposite verdicts.

As I understand the courts the Hellman trial included much more clarification and intelligence, and the Massei trial had so much information even Massei was making no sense in many parts of his report. At some sections Massei even used fantasy/speculation which no one can argue.

And each Kercher is a person of their own mind, so very likely they have their own internal family disagreements.

It would be interesting to know more of the their individual perspectives and thoughts.

 

[Mary_H]

That's kind of my stance as a starting point. All I know is media articles saying they are confused from two opposite verdicts.

I felt so sorry for the Kerchers at their press conference when they expressed their confusion, but I was perplexed at the thought that they could possibly be unaware of all the arguments against the flaws in the investigation and the flaws in the Massei report. Does Maresca counter every single truth that comes their way, or are they just avoiding reading about the case altogether?

As I understand the courts the Hellman trial included much more clarification and intelligence, and the Massei trial had so much information even Massei was making no sense in many parts of his report. At some sections Massei even used fantasy/speculation which no one can argue.

And each Kercher is a person of their own mind, so very likely they have their own internal family disagreements.

It would be interesting to know more of the their individual perspectives and thoughts.

I agree. I think most of them will be appalled when they realize what has happened.

 

[Mary_H]

Patrick, I fear (who affects that name to imply a connection to a famous man with whom he shares a surname, but to whom he is not related), is only out for himself. So long as he believes that his personal interests are served by supporting the police narrative and demonising Amanda, he'll do it. If there were a serious prospect of gaining significant compensation from the police over being beaten up, he might change his mind, but not otherwise.

Rolfe.

If, as people claim, he was paid $70,000 Euros for the purported early interview with the Mail, he should just keep giving interviews. That's a lot of dough. I suspect the close association the police and Mignini have developed with Patrick are intended to keep him quiet, though.

He might make more telling the truth in a book than by suing the people who didn't commit the crime. Someone get that man a literary agent.