can scientology really brainwash someone?

[Meffy]

@negativ: Based on what ponderingturtle says, I'd say the high-level 'tollies know perfectly well that they're frauds. Either that or they're so far 'round the bend that they believe they have whatever super-powers they're supposed to've got.

[edit] Heh, Ladewig seized on the same point. :-}

 

[JamesDillon]

@negativ: Based on what ponderingturtle says, I'd say the high-level 'tollies know perfectly well that they're frauds. Either that or they're so far 'round the bend that they believe they have whatever super-powers they're supposed to've got.

[edit] Heh, Ladewig seized on the same point. :-}

It's not so different from the bit in the Bible about faith the size of a mustard seed moving mountains, and there's probably a similar rationalization for it-- once you reach the transcendent point at which you have these abilities, you won't want to "abuse" them by, you know, ever invoking them. And if you want to be able to do such things, that's just evidence that you're not sufficiently enlightened yet.

 

[Meffy]

H-hm. Sounds a lot like the rationalizations some folks come up with for refusing to take the Challenge, doesn't it?

 

[casebro]

Scientology is probably the most successful "Large Group Awareness Training" scam around. I looked in to that stuff when my brother was exposed to "The Forum". I found the introductory 'class' entertaining, and told the forum leader as much. He let me in on his "alrready listening" of me, and told me I would never attend any of their classes. We were both right.

Anyhow, the system of boring you to tears at the first meeting serve to break down your resistance, before they clinch the deal and get you to sign up. It was first discovered by a Puritan Preacher in New England about 1770. Ever wonder why your head nods during a church service? All part of the brain washing. Study up on Hypnosis and "transcendental meditation" too. Interesting how the brain works.

 

[Loss Leader]

"big egos and low self-esteem"? Please explain how that is not self contradictory.

I'm told that this is pretty much the definition of narcisists. I will look for a source ... now.

Okay, here's an introductory article:

A narcissist can be hard to identify, in part because he is likely to be much more fascinating than you would expect for someone so self-absorbed, and in part because you wouldn't think someone with such self-regard could be so defensive and needy.

And

An unhappy narcissist generally believes that his main problem is that other people don't treat him as well as he deserves. . . . "Narcissists are either dragged in by someone who is having trouble with them—a spouse or relative—or they show up because of feelings of emptiness," says Rhodewalt. "Why, they wonder, if they're so accomplished and wonderful, does life seem so empty?"

Here's the whole article from Psychology Today. Whatever I said, this is what I meant to say.

 

[YoPopa]

I'm told that this is pretty much the definition of narcisists. I will look for a source ... now.
Here's the whole article from Psychology Today. Whatever I said, this is what I meant to say.

Thanks, I can almost see where you came from with that statement but the article referenced does not seem to back it up on the whole.

from the article:

The beauty of being a narcissist is that even when disaster stares you in the face, you feel neither doubt nor remorse. .....

They are less likely to be depressed, sad or anxious, and rate their subjective well-being more highly. They're less reactive to stress, and recover more rapidly from it. .....

Mild narcissism also seems to help people recover from accidents or other trauma—it gives them an unrealistic sense of their own invulnerability, and they believe that they will be able to handle whatever else life throws at them....

IMHO, the idea that narcissistic people are overcompensating for low self esteem is more of an ego defense strategy for the rest of us.

As the issue of narcissism relates to the thread my main point is that most scientologists are not attracted to scientology because they are narcissists. They probably acquire the tendency from scientology but it will be a shallow compensatory veneer of self confidence.

The hardcore clinical level narcissist is less likely to get drawn into a cult. Why would they? They already have all the answers. I grant that scientology has more than it's share of clinical level narcissists such as Tom Cruise and John Travolta but they can never be the majority in any organization. Lock a bunch of them in the same room for a few hours and watch the peacocks tear off each others feathers.

 

[brooklyn44]

Loss Leader: "Whatever I said, this is what I meant to say." I LOVE IT!

 

[Inquisitive Raven]

Has anyone on this thread actually attempted to read Elron's book Scientology? I did. I think got to about Chapter Five when I realized that this was a brainwashing manual and went "fugeddaboutit." At any rate, it was the part where the auditor has the auditee make up lies about their families.

I think that's all I really needed to know about it.

 

[jimtron]

Has anyone on this thread actually attempted to read Elron's book Scientology? I did. I think got to about Chapter Five when I realized that this was a brainwashing manual and went "fugeddaboutit." At any rate, it was the part where the auditor has the auditee make up lies about their families.

I think that's all I really needed to know about it.

Yeah, some of the most damning evidence against Scientology and Dianetics is in their own "scriptures," as their legally referred to. Especially the earlier editions.

 

[supercorgi]

"big egos and low self-esteem"? Please explain how that is not self contradictory.

Actually, it is quite possible. I've experienced it myself and so did a past boyfriend of mine. You can think your smart and superior, but part of you thinks that your the lowest thing on earth. It's a very wierd and complicated experience and not at all pleasant. In college, even though I was getting straight A's, I thought that I was fooling everyone and was terrified that they would find me out, yet at the same time, I felt superior for some reason. It was very strange. But I got better!

 

[Foster Zygote]

A narcissist can be hard to identify, in part because he is likely to be much more fascinating than you would expect for someone so self-absorbed, and in part because you wouldn't think someone with such self-regard could be so defensive and needy.

I'm not going to name names, but that really made me think of a certain someone.

Steven

 

[fuelair]

It's almost entirely woo. And the sad fact is, it doesn't have to be.

Scientology wins converts by helping people with big egos and low self-esteem realize that nothing is their own fault. Every bad thing that happens isn't because of you, but because of the negative "thetans" burdening you and keeping you from achieving perfection or even the negative "thetans" of others bringing you down. You are not responsible for your failures.

That's a pretty powerful message. And a lot of people buy into it because it makes them feel better about themselves. There's no hypnotic trance or subliminal suggestion. It's all basic psychology - the basic psychology of how to appeal to rich ego-maniacal jerks.

Keep in mind the equation: PPM=BPS where PPM is Scientology and BPS is feces.

 

[rats]

I have a theory that when my dad finally escaped scientology, his mind was perfectly mashed for the Merlin crowd. Now his reality is so far removed from my own, we can barely communicate.

 

[Cuddles]

I don't think my brain has ever been washed. I wonder how badly it smells by now.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Hey scientology has the bonus that when you reach certain levels you get all those super powers. Everyone knows Tom Cruise can raise the dead.

He's done it to his career more than once. (rimshot)

 

[aggle-rithm]

I don't think my brain has ever been washed. I wonder how badly it smells by now.

Interesting that you can't smell your own brain, when the olfactory bulb is RIGHT THERE.

 

[AWPrime]

Who are more susceptible to brainwashing?

 

[YoPopa]

Who are more susceptible to brainwashing?

As Gord_in_Toronto pointed out

Because you are lonely, because you have no friends, because you are scared?

And I add to that "because you are human". It is easier to eliminate those who are not susceptible by ruling out those with no brains.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Interesting that you can't smell your own brain, when the olfactory bulb is RIGHT THERE.

Perhaps we can smell it, but we're so used to it that we don't recognize it. After all, zombies seem to have no trouble smelling them.

Steven

 

[trvlr2]

Perhaps we can smell it, but we're so used to it that we don't recognize it. After all, zombies seem to have no trouble smelling them.

Steven

Been waiting for years!! EVIDENCE. please!