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Can pressure be negative?

I'm now thinking that a definition along the lines of "the energy a body has due to its momentum" would kind of satisfy me. Under such a definition then, yes, photons have kinetic energy. But like people say, it is all semantics.

It's not just semantics TBT, it's actually about kinetic energy and 'physics' in the final analysis.

IMO this confusion underscores a serious problem in mainstream thinking, particularly since you were not the only one to make that same mistake.

The pressure in the vacuum is positive because there is a positive amount of kinetic energy in the vacuum, and there always will be kinetic energy present in the vacuum. We can't remove even every atom, let alone every neutrinos or quantum flux. The most we might ever do, even in theory, is remove every particle and therefore every bit of kinetic energy to achieve a "zero" pressure state in a vacuum. There is no such thing as negative kinetic energy or negative pressure in a vacuum.
 
Why is the the calculated pressure exerted by the Casimir effect negative, MM

The pressure in the vacuum is positive because there is a positive amount of kinetic energy in the vacuum, and there always will be kinetic energy present in the vacuum. We can't remove even every atom, let alone every neutrinos or quantum flux. The most we might ever do, even in theory, is remove every particle and therefore every bit of kinetic energy to achieve a "zero" pressure state in a vacuum. There is no such thing as negative kinetic energy or negative pressure in a vacuum.

You arre still ignoing the physics, MM
  1. Pressure has nothing to do with kinetic enery
  2. We can and do remove enough atoms so that the pressure from gases is neglegible compared to 'quantum flux'.
    That is why Casimir experiments are done in vacuum chambers, Michael Mozina :eye-poppi!
  3. 'quantum flux' does not exist. Quantum fluctuation (or the virtural particles from such) is the correct term.
  4. There is negative pressure in a vacuum. The theory says so. It has been measured.
It would take a real idiot to think that there is negative kinetic energy in a vacuum. By its definition kinetic energy is always positive (except for negative masses or imaginary speeds :D).
It would take someone especially ignorant to think that negative kinetic energy has anything to do with negative pressure.

Any further response to these, MM?
Why is the the calculated pressure exerted by the Casimir effect negative?
Why is the the measured pressure exerted by the Casimir effect negative?
First asked 7th April 2011
 
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The pressure in the vacuum is positive because there is a positive amount of kinetic energy in the vacuum, and there always will be kinetic energy present in the vacuum. We can't remove even every atom, let alone every neutrinos or quantum flux. The most we might ever do, even in theory, is remove every particle and therefore every bit of kinetic energy to achieve a "zero" pressure state in a vacuum. There is no such thing as negative kinetic energy or negative pressure in a vacuum.

How many times can you make the same wrong argument? It doesn't matter in the slightest whether there is positive pressure from atoms. If the negative pressure from other factors is bigger than the positive pressure then the net pressure is negative.
What you are claiming is analogous to the following:
Protons have positive charge and never have negative charge, therefore any collection of matter that contains protons must always have positive charge. The minimum charge that any collection of matter can have is 0.
 
How many times can you make the same wrong argument?

How many times can you?

It doesn't matter in the slightest whether there is positive pressure from atoms.

Of course it matters. That's what precludes you from claiming that any real vacuum contains "negative pressure".

If the negative pressure from other factors is bigger than the positive pressure then the net pressure is negative.

There is no *negative pressure*! There is just "kinetic energy", more on some sides of the plates and less on others! Hoy There's nothing but "positive pressure" and "relatively lower" pressure between the plates.

What you are claiming is analogous to the following:
Protons have positive charge and never have negative charge, therefore any collection of matter that contains protons must always have positive charge. The minimum charge that any collection of matter can have is 0.

That's a bad analogy because photons do not contain "negative kinetic energy" or "negative pressure" to offset the pressure from those atoms. Since the type of material is critical to the process and it's related to the EM field, we know for a fact that *photons* do the transfer of kinetic energy, and not a single photon possesses "negative kinetic energy".

You're still making the same mistake, burying your head in the sand, and trying to completely ignore the "positive kinetic pressure" on the outside of the plates!
 
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That's a bad analogy because photons do not contain "negative kinetic energy" or "negative pressure" to offset the pressure from those atoms.

Negative energy isn't required in order to create negative pressure.

In fact, let's consider an example YOU brought up:

Can the energy of a vacuum increase with increasing volume?
Sure. Crank up the charge between two objects in a vacuum and you'll get an increase in kinetic energy between the objects in the vacuum. It's an increase of *particle kinetic energy*.

So let's do exactly that. Take to parallel plates with a vacuum between them. Put opposite charges on the two plates. You've created an electric field in the vacuum between the two plates. This electric field has an energy. Call it kinetic energy if you like, I don't actually care. But there's an energy contained in the field in that vacuum. If those plates are close together (relative to their size), then the energy density is constant. Increase the separation (but not too much, we'll still work with them being relatively close), and the energy density remains the same, but the volume increases, so the total energy in the vacuum increases.

Now, what's the pressure associated with this volume-dependent energy? Is the pressure positive or negative? What force does that pressure create on the plates? Is it inwards or outwards?
 
You arre still ignoing the physics, MM
[*]Pressure has nothing to do with kinetic enery

BZZT. Pressure has *everything* to do with "kinetic energy" in a vacuum. Just look at the formula for the pressure of a light gas (since that's all you'll ever actually achieve in any vacuum). It's directly related to temperature which is directly related to kinetic energy. You keep ignoring kinetic energy and that's essentially the same problem that plays out in mainstream beliefs again and again and again.

We can and do remove enough atoms so that the pressure from gases is neglegible compared to 'quantum flux'.

Nobody doubts that.

That is why Casimir experiments are done in vacuum chambers, Michael Mozina :eye-poppi!

So what?

'quantum flux' does not exist. Quantum fluctuation (or the virtural particles from such) is the correct term.

The "fluctuation" occurs *everywhere* in the chamber RC, not just between the plates. If you really created a "negative pressure" inside the chamber then the type of material would be irrelevant. All you're doing is creating more fluctuation on one side of the plate and less on the other. So what?

There is negative pressure in a vacuum. The theory says so. It has been measured.

Boloney. No pressure gauge in any vacuum ever records a "negative" pressure. You're either describing the ATTRACTION between atoms (in two separate plates), or your describing fluctuation differences between the outside and inside of the plates. At no time have you ever achieved a "negative pressure" from any part of that "vacuum".

It would take a real idiot......

It's ridiculous to try to have a normal conversation around here. All you folks ever do is resort to attacking people with loaded language like "idiot" and "crank" and "crackpot" and about anything else you folks can dream up short of calling me "evil'. No amount of that kind of trash talking is going to save you from dealing with reality. You can't even get any area of any vacuum to experience a non positive pressure because you can't even remove all the atoms from any vacuum. The best you can hope for is a "low pressure' on the inside and a "higher pressure" on the outside of the plates.
 
Negative energy isn't required in order to create negative pressure.

In fact, let's consider an example YOU brought up:




So let's do exactly that. Take to parallel plates with a vacuum between them. Put opposite charges on the two plates. You've created an electric field in the vacuum between the two plates. This electric field has an energy. Call it kinetic energy if you like, I don't actually care. But there's an energy contained in the field in that vacuum. If those plates are close together (relative to their size), then the energy density is constant. Increase the separation (but not too much, we'll still work with them being relatively close), and the energy density remains the same, but the volume increases, so the total energy in the vacuum increases.

Now, what's the pressure associated with this volume-dependent energy? Is the pressure positive or negative? What force does that pressure create on the plates? Is it inwards or outwards?

Leaving aside the charge argument for a moment, you have a core problem in your analogy as it relates to Guth's claim. He doesn't have an "external" thingamabob to work with. There's nothing in Guth's magical vacuum to place opposite his *ONE* thing. You're consistently using a TWO OBJECT analogy when Guth has only *ONE THING* (besides a vacuum) to work with. Why?
 
Of course it matters. That's what precludes you from claiming that any real vacuum contains "negative pressure".
That is really ignorant, Michael Mozina.
Start with a situation where there is a big positive pressure caused by gases and a small negative pressure caused by quantum fluctuations.
Measure the pressure: It is positive.
Reduce the large positive pressure by removing the gas atoms. This does not affect the quantum fluctuations.
At some point you get to a point where the forces causing the positive pressure are less than the forces causing the negative pressure.
Measure the pressure: It is negative.

You seem to think that if there is 1 atom between the plates in the Casimir experiments then they have to measure a positive pressure. The actual experiments say that you are wrong (Why is the the measured pressure exerted by the Casimir effect negative?).
 
How many times can you?
Well you haven't shown it once yet...

Of course it matters. That's what precludes you from claiming that any real vacuum contains "negative pressure".
I don't need a real vacuum. The vacuum energy exists whether or not the vacuum is truly free from particles or not.

There is no *negative pressure*! There is just "kinetic energy", more on some sides of the plates and less on others! Hoy There's nothing but "positive pressure" and "relatively lower" pressure between the plates.
Err huh. You can claim that as much as you want. But pressure isn't defined in terms of kinetic energy so it is an utterly meaningless claim.

That's a bad analogy because photons do not contain "negative kinetic energy" or "negative pressure" to offset the pressure from those atoms.
I never claimed they did have negative kinetic energy. Have you not realised yet that that the only one who thinks negative pressure requires negative kinetic energy is you. Also I didn'e even tmention photons in my analogy.

Since the type of material is critical to the process and it's related to the EM field, we know for a fact that *photons* do the transfer of kinetic energy, and not a single photon possesses "negative kinetic energy".
Nobody except you has even mentioned kinetic energy. How many times!??? Negative pressure does not mean negative kinetic energy. Negative pressure means dE/dV is positive. Until you stop with this nonsense about negative kinetic energy (seriously, why do you keep bringing up this strawman) I can't imagine anybody will pay take you seriously in any form.

You're still making the same mistake, burying your head in the sand, and trying to completely ignore the "positive kinetic pressure" on the outside of the plates!
No I'm not. You can claim this all you want but the only think in support for this assertion is rambling about negative kinetic energy. Which is a strawman of your own making.
 
Leaving aside the charge argument for a moment, you have a core problem in your analogy as it relates to Guth's claim. He doesn't have an "external" thingamabob to work with. There's nothing in Guth's magical vacuum to place opposite his *ONE* thing. You're consistently using a TWO OBJECT analogy when Guth has only *ONE THING* (besides a vacuum) to work with. Why?

This isn't a thread about Guth. It is irrelevant. It is a thread about pressure. The clue is in the title.
 
Leaving aside the charge argument for a moment, you have a core problem in your analogy as it relates to Guth's claim.

I'm not talking about Guth's claim. Its relevance to Guth's claim is a separate matter, which there's no point in even discussing if we can't figure out what's going on with this scenario, a scenario that you proposed. So answer the question: what's the pressure in this scenario?
 
I'm not talking about Guth's claim. Its relevance to Guth's claim is a separate matter, which there's no point in even discussing if we can't figure out what's going on with this scenario, a scenario that you proposed. So answer the question: what's the pressure in this scenario?

In that particular case you're talking a *FORCE* between two objects that pulls them together, not the pressure of the vacuum between them. Guth needed negative pressure from a "vacuum", not another plate with an opposite charge.
 
This isn't a thread about Guth. It is irrelevant. It is a thread about pressure. The clue is in the title.

The original debate stared with Guth's claim that his mystical vacuum contained "negative pressure". That's the claim that I balked at. Yes, you can create FORCE on the plate via charge separation, but it's not coming from the vacuum in that case, it's coming from a *SECOND* thing inside the vacuum, not the vacuum itself. Guth doesn't have anything "external' to his one "near singularity thingy". There's nothing on the outside for it to interact with electrically or magnetically. It's a *SINGULAR* clumpy thingy with nothing external to it but a vacuum and nothing to hold a "negative pressure".
 
In that particular case you're talking a *FORCE* between two objects that pulls them together, not the pressure of the vacuum between them.

You say that like pressure and force are unrelated. But they aren't. Pressure = Force/area, or force = pressure x area. The force between the plates scales as the area of the plates. That's a pressure, Michael.

And that pressure can be directly attributed to the energy of the vacuum between the plates. We can even crunch the numbers together if you like, but I suspect you don't want to, given your math phobia.

So the only question is, is that pressure positive or negative?
 
Negative Pressure

There is no such thing as negative kinetic energy or negative pressure in a vacuum.

It is difficult to know the answer when one does not understand the question. In this case the question from the OP is two-fold, one being "can pressure in the classical sense be negative?" and the other being "can pressure in the cosmological sense be negative?" Understanding either question requires knowledge of the definition of the word "pressure". Absent such knowledge, one does not understand the question and therefore can hardly be expect to answer reliably.

The negativity of pressure in the classical sense is fairly easy to understand, as long as we realize that negative pressure quite literally sucks. If a spherical membrane shrinks because it is being pushed in by outside pressure, that is an example of positive pressure applied to the surface. If a spherical membrane shrinks because it is being pulled in from below, that is an example of negative pressure being applied to the surface. One can see that in the general case, any pump works by applying negative pressure to that which is being pumped.

But the cosmological case requires a bit more insight. Mozina's response above assumes a classical, particle based definition for both "kinetic energy" and "pressure". Given that particular definition, then obviously his conclusion is correct. After all, if we have a true vacuum, then we have no particles and therefore no kinetic energy. And if we have no particles or kinetic energy, then clearly we can have no particle based pressure at all. However, this conclusion is based on the faulty premise that his chosen definition for "pressure" is correct. In fact that is a false assumption, and therefore the conclusions based thereon should be viewed with suspicion, and assumed to be false, in the absence of a strong argument to the contrary.

One must be aware that not all energy is "kinetic" and therefore neither is all pressure "kinetic" or particle based. Fields carry energy, and therefore pressure as well, despite the complete absence of all things "kinetic". Indeed, the pressure from a scalar field is nicely defined for us by Steven Weinberg in his book, Cosmology (Oxford University Press, 2008), on page 527, equation B.67:

[latex] p = -\dfrac{1}{2}g^\mu^\nu \frac{\partial {\phi}}{\partial {X^\mu}} \frac{\partial {\phi}}{\partial {X^\nu}} - V(\phi) [/latex]

In tis equation, [latex]\phi[/latex] is the scalar field and [latex]V(\phi)[/latex] is the potential for the field. Of course there are ways to simplify this expression by carrying out the indicated operations in the context of a cosmological model. For a general relativistic, expanding universe, we find equivalent formulations in Weinberg's Cosmology, pages 8-9, and in Scott Dodelson's Modern Cosmology (Academic Press, 2003), page 151 (section 1.5.1, "Negative Pressure"). Dodelson's equation 6.22 is:

[latex] \dfrac{1}{a} \frac{d^2 a}{dt^2} = -\frac{4\pi G}{3} (\rho + 3P)[/latex]

Quoting from Dodelson: "Acceleration is defined to mean that d2a/dt2 is positive. For this to happen, the terms in parentheses on the right must be negative. So inflation requires

[latex]P[/latex] < [latex] -\dfrac{\rho}{3}[/latex].

Since the energy density is always positive, the pressure must be negative. This result is perhaps not surprising: we saw back in Chapter 2 that the accelerated expansion which causes supernovae to appear very faint can be caused only by dark energy with negative pressure. Inflation was apparently driven by a similar form of energy, one with P < 0. To reiterate what we emphasized in Chapter 2, negative pressure is not something with which we have any familiarity. Nonrelativistic matter has small positive pressure proportional to temperature divided by mass, while a relativistic gas has [latex]P = +\dfrac{\rho}{3}[/latex], again positive. So whatever it is that drives inflation is not ordinary matter or radiation.
" (End Quote)

It must be remembered that observation leads us to the conclusion that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, which is consistent with physics as we know it only if the pressure of the vacuum is negative, as Dodelson says above. It must also be remembered that observation leads to the conclusion that physics as we know it and the observed behavior of the universe can be made mutually consistent with each other only if there is a period of extreme "inflationary" expansion in the very early infancy of the universe, again driven by negative pressure, as Dodelson says above. There is also a nice discussion of negative pressure in Edward Harrison's book Cosmology: The Science of the Universe (Cambridge University Press, 2000, 2nd edition) on page 369 (section heading: "Universes in Tension: The Strange Worlds of Negative Pressure"), but I will leave that for the reader to pursue.

So, the bottom line for the OP is certainly "yes", pressure can be negative, in both a common practical sense, or a less common cosmological sense. The advent of negative vacuum pressure in cosmology was certainly a surprise but cosmology, like any other scientific pursuit, is dominated by observation (increasingly so in recent decades). We already know that Mozina rejects dark matter & dark energy, though for no particularly good reason. But then we already know that Mozina rejects the foundations of science altogether (e.g., What is "Empirical" Science? III from 1 Feb 2010 and many a post thereafter). His contrary arguments are thus accompanied only by opinion as a justification, while informed and factual arguments are absent, so his position must be considered without merit.
 
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Why is this still going on?

It depends on the scale of observation. In macro terms, it depends purely on the presence or absence of vapour molecules. If you measure it in absolute terms, then no, you can't possibly have a negative pressure (by definition), if you measure guage pressure then you can have upto (down to?) 1 bar pressure (approx, depends on barometic pressure).

When you get to quantum effects then the gloves come off and it depends on your definition, which you will need to defend in a paper. Constantly whining about which definition is 'best' without recognising that each definition has it's merits given the circumstances of the observation is utter bull. You can defend your choices for a particular measurement or you can't. The idea that you can be all en-compassing for a QM system is BS.
 
It is still going on because Michael Mozina cannot understand the concept that forces other than those caused by particles bumping against surfaces exert pressure.
We have given him the example of the Casimir effect which in theory and experiment gives negative pressure.
We have given him the example of the cosmological constant in general relativity causing a negative pressure.

He is now trying to ignore the next example (the force between 2 oppositely charged plates causes a negative pressure).

All defintions of pressure allow negative pressure to exist.
 
It depends on the scale of observation. In macro terms, it depends purely on the presence or absence of vapour molecules. If you measure it in absolute terms, then no, you can't possibly have a negative pressure (by definition)

"by definition". What's the definition? Because according to standard definitions of pressure, it can indeed be negative. What definition of pressure precludes negative values? I've never seen such a definition.

When you get to quantum effects then the gloves come off and it depends on your definition

There is a very standard definition which works for both classical mechanics and quantum mechanics. So I'm not sure why you think the answer "depends on your definition", when a very standard definition is available for both classical and quantum mechanics.

Constantly whining about which definition is 'best' without recognising that each definition has it's merits given the circumstances of the observation is utter bull. You can defend your choices for a particular measurement or you can't. The idea that you can be all en-compassing for a QM system is BS.

I have yet to see a case where the definition P = -dE/dV does not work.
 

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