Can Disbelief Effect?

[Zep]

Zep/Pixy,

Placebo can be 'effect by belief', nocebo-effect by disbelief, what about any technical word for effect by no-belief?

Wrong from the start.

The "placebo effect" is a DESCRIPTION of something that happens. It is not a "substance" you can put in a bottle and use like medicine. It makes no sense at all to think of it like that.

Think of it like the word "flying". Lots of things do "flying" by many methods - it is a description of what these things do. But you can't get a bottle of "flying" and pour it to something to make it fly. It makes no sense at all to think of it like that.

So wen we say that it is "the placebo effect", we mean that what has happened is DESCRIBED as the placebo effect. When we say it is the "nocebo effect", we mean that what has happened is DESCRIBED as the nocebo effect.

So now let's look at your question... Aah, yes.

The answer is: "You are talking nonsense again."

 

[Mojo]

The fact that millions hold on to a belief in vitamin C does not outweigh the scientific research results that vitamin C has no effect.

I'm sorry, but that really won't convice Kumar. As far as he is concerned, the belief in vitamin C is "mass existing in well distributed people since long" and therefore unassailable.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm sorry, but that really won't convice Kumar. As far as he is concerned, the belief in vitamin C is "mass existing in well distributed people since long" and therefore unassailable.

And bleeding people was practiced for how long?

 

[Kumar]

I guess I need to state my original answer here again, with some added enfasis and a question: whats the incomprehensible, unintelligible side of "cause and effect"???:

The so called "placebo effect" is NOT an EFFECT in the sense that it has no causal effectivity, this is, there is no proof at all about someone getting better because of the "placebo effect". Some subjects might report feeling better, but thats a subjective feeling, unrelated to any objective changes in their condition.

Of course the same goes for disbelief in the treatment, someone can doubt with all his heart that a vaccine will not prevent him from being sick, yet, the vaccine will do its work, again and again. In other words will have causal effectivity beyond the claimed "power" of beliefs.

That is ok, I therefore said, modern medicine can overpower body system whereas energy based remedies can't. It can also depend on magnitude of belief/disbelief. More the belief/disbelief, more/less a healing sunstance can be effective.

 

[Kumar]

Wrong from the start.

The "placebo effect" is a DESCRIPTION of something that happens. It is not a "substance" you can put in a bottle and use like medicine. It makes no sense at all to think of it like that.

Think of it like the word "flying". Lots of things do "flying" by many methods - it is a description of what these things do. But you can't get a bottle of "flying" and pour it to something to make it fly. It makes no sense at all to think of it like that.

Actually, there is a defficiency in this subject topic. It should have bee : " Can Disbelief/No-belief effect"? Probaby Darat can change it.

I know it. PE is just psycological or self healing, indirect effect. But whether homeopathic effect is alike this or not ,can be bit secret/unclear in mass.....people.

Lighter/smaller particles/photons of any substance can fly with air.

Rest is not clear to me.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That is ok, I therefore said, modern medicine can overpower body system whereas energy based remedies can't. It can also depend on magnitude of belief/disbelief. More the belief/disbelief, more/less a healing sunstance can be effective.

I don't know that there is any evidence being more convinced makes anything so. There are many people with cancer, for example, that are completely convinced they will survive, yet the impact of such beliefs is pretty minimal. There are many people with spinal cord injuries in complete denial, in other words they believe with all their might, they will recover. It has almost no impact, and in many cases absolutely no impact.

I have worked with many such patients. I am convinced they truly believed they would heal. Denial is a very strong mental defense against serious threat or loss. It serves the purpose of helping people cope. It doesn't heal them physically.

 

[Kumar]

And bleeding people was practiced for how long?

Thanks for explaining in detail. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY ABOVE?

Btw, in consideration of complete health or pure body, whether immunities & resistances are a defect or accumulation of defect or somewhat a suppression?

 

[Kumar]

I don't know that there is any evidence being more convinced makes anything so. There are many people with cancer, for example, that are completely convinced they will survive, yet the impact of such beliefs is pretty minimal. There are many people with spinal cord injuries in complete denial, in other words they believe with all their might, they will recover. It has almost no impact, and in many cases absolutely no impact.

I have worked with many such patients. I am convinced they truly believed they would heal. Denial is a very strong mental defense against serious threat or loss. It serves the purpose of helping people cope. It doesn't heal them physically.

You are right in gross sense. Keeping belief or disbelief, being psychological, may reqire very deep, continious, dedicated & prolong concentrations alike learning medications, hypnotism & practicing it thereafter. It may be a slow process in pure environment ,which may be bit impractical in today's time. Moreover a person may be rquiring tense free, deep hearted moods & atomosphere, which may not be there in disease condition, in hospitals UNLESS previously/in advance prepared for that.

 

[Zep]

Actually, there is a defficiency in this subject topic. It should have bee : " Can Disbelief/No-belief effect"? Probaby Darat can change it.

I know it. PE is just psycological or self healing, indirect effect. But whether homeopathic effect is alike this or not ,can be bit secret/unclear in mass.....people.

Lighter/smaller particles/photons of any substance can fly with air.

Rest is not clear to me.

Whoops! Kumar has been cornered now. See him run and hide by changing the subject and ignoring stuff.

Oh, and the highlighted bit? That would make a great sig line for someone...

 

[Zep]

I know it. PE is just psycological or self healing, indirect effect. But whether homeopathic effect is alike this or not ,can be bit secret/unclear in mass.....people.

Kumar, homeopathy IS COMPLETELY ALIKE to the placebo effect. In all tests that have ever been done "in mass......people" all over the world, homeopathy produces the same results as the placebo effect. Each and every time. There is no way to tell homeopathy apart from the placebo effect by the results you get from each. Is this quite clear?

So how many more times do we have to tell you before it sinks in? HOMEOPATHY IS NO MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN THE PLACEBO EFFECT. THEREFORE IT IS REASONABLE TO CONCLUDE THAT IT IS JUST A PLACEBO EFFECT AND NOT REAL MEDICINE. Is THAT quite clear?

Meanwhile, real allopathic medicine that is used in real hospitals by real doctors is CLEARLY MORE SUCCESSFUL than the placebo effect. This has been shown in "mass.......people" many times over, all over the world. Some medicines are VERY successful and show great results. Some are less successful. But ALL OF THEM are better than placebo. That is how we know they work - because they are TESTED like that by "mass.....people". If they did not work, they would not be used - simple. Now, is THAT quite clear?

If not, it will be time to put you on Ignore. I've reached the end of your blithering idiocies.

 

[PixyMisa]

You are right in gross sense. Keeping belief or disbelief, being psychological, may reqire very deep, continious, dedicated & prolong concentrations alike learning medications, hypnotism & practicing it thereafter. It may be a slow process in pure environment ,which may be bit impractical in today's time. Moreover a person may be rquiring tense free, deep hearted moods & atomosphere, which may not be there in disease condition, in hospitals UNLESS previously/in advance prepared for that.

Of course, if you just used actual medicine which really did something, you wouldn't have to bother with all of that. You'd just get cured and go on with your life.

Instead, at the end of your very deep, continious, dedicated & prolong concentrations alike learning medications, hypnotism & practicing it thereafter, you die from typhoid fever, which could have been cleared up in a few days with a course of antibiotics.

 

[Zep]

Instead, at the end of your very deep, continious, dedicated & prolong concentrations alike learning medications, hypnotism & practicing it thereafter, you die from typhoid fever, which could have been cleared up in a few days with a course of antibiotics.

Knowing Kumar, even at his very last breath, he would STILL insist he was "getting better" using homeopathy! (Is there a "wry smile" smilie??)

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip* There are many people with spinal cord injuries in complete denial, in other words they believe with all their might, they will recover. It has almost no impact, and in many cases absolutely no impact.

I have worked with many such patients. I am convinced they truly believed they would heal. Denial is a very strong mental defense against serious threat or loss. It serves the purpose of helping people cope. It doesn't heal them physically.

Reminds me of Christopher Reeve. I recently saw a documentary about him. He fought like few people are able to fight, and I'm shure it meant a lot to him, mentally. But physically, all he really acheived was to lift a finger a little and to breathe without a respirator (but with the help of a "pacemaker") for two rather short periods.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*
Rest is not clear to me.

An essential statement.

Kumar does not understand science. Kumar does not understand pharmacology. Kumar does not understand physics. Kumar does not understand pathology. Kumar does not understand complicated English sentences.

Yet, Kumar pretends to teach us all about how the world really works.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Some good & bad points can be there in every system. Mass existing observations & experiances...can be there on both sides. But you just see & interpret 'half empity side of glass filled with water' in case of other systems BUT half filled side in case of your liked system/s. But it is just unjustification to reality & suited to gulliable people, not to believers, observers & experianced ones. Try to be some positive. Being skeptic & following skepticism, you become persistant/addicted skeptic becuse you feel/finds/support, your liked system/s is/are continious/kinetic process of scientific work, not persistant/fixed/absolute one AND so you ought to be always skeptic even in this--so I thought as a persistant/addicted skeptic[/b]. So just give a real thought to it, bit dynamically without ego.

 

[Kumar]

An essential statement.

Kumar does not understand science. Kumar does not understand pharmacology. Kumar does not understand physics. Kumar does not understand pathology. Kumar does not understand complicated English sentences.

Yet, Kumar pretends to teach us all about how the world really works.

Hans

But still, you are persisting since long interacting with me. Are you so gullible? I think not at all. Then, why you want to impress/attune others, for what you are not able to control, is bit undigestable? Sorry, for mentioning the bitter truth.

One who want to know, asks questions, re-question on non satisfaction, tell the doubts/or discuss--do not mean, he should be knowing/teaching everything. I think you are also not a Diabetologiist/Endocrinologist/doctor or medically studied--still you know, discuss & tell more about diabetes etc. Should you be remain limited to your academic studies? I don't know, what you are & what you have academically studied?

 

[PixyMisa]

Some good & bad points can be there in every system. Mass existing observations & experiances...can be there on both sides. But you just see & interpret 'half empity side of glass filled with water' in case of other systems BUT half filled side in case of your liked system/s. But it is just unjustification to reality & suited to gulliable people, not to believers, observers & experianced ones. Try to be some positive. Being skeptic & following skepticism, you become persistant/addicted skeptic becuse you feel/finds/support, your liked system/s is/are continious/kinetic process of scientific work, not persistant/fixed/absolute one AND so you ought to be always skeptic even in this--so I thought as a persistant/addicted skeptic. So just give a real thought to it, bit dynamically without ego. [/B]

Bibbity bobbity boo.

Kumar, homeopathy doesn't work. We don't give a rat's arse what you or anyone else believes. Believing in stuff doesn't matter. The universe couldn't care less what you believe in. What matters is what works, and homeopathy ain't it.

Skepticism is just a matter of checking things with the ultimate authority: reality. You should try it some time.

 

[PixyMisa]

But still, you are persisting since long interacting with me. Are you so gullible? I think not at all. Then, why you want to impress/attune others, for what you are not able to control, is bit undigestable? Sorry, for mentioning the bitter truth.

Kumar, you wouldn't know a bitter truth if one crept up behind you and bittered you on the bum.

One who want to know, asks questions, re-question on non satisfaction, tell the doubts/or discuss--do not mean, he should be knowing/teaching everything.

Asking questions is important.

It's every bit as important that you pay attention to the answers.

I think you are also not a Diabetologiist/Endocrinologist/doctor or medically studied--still you know, discuss & tell more about diabetes etc. Should you be remain limited to your academic studies? I don't know, what you are & what you have academically studied?

A dried squid wrapped in plastic knows more about diabetes and endocrinology than you, Kumar, so I can't see how you could possible object to having Hans point out your failings.

 

[MRC_Hans]

But still, you are persisting since long interacting with me. Are you so gullible? I think not at all. Then, why you want to impress/attune others, for what you are not able to control, is bit undigestable? Sorry, for mentioning the bitter truth.

Har, har, Kumar, you wouldn't know a bitter truth if it bit your nose. I'm interacting with people who ask questions because that is what I decided to come to a forum like this for. There is nothing wrong with your questions, Kumar, and there is nothing wrong with the answers. What is wrong is that you ask questions but are not interested in the answers.

One who want to know, asks questions, re-question on non satisfaction, tell the doubts/or discuss--do not mean, he should be knowing/teaching everything.

You are not just re-questioning. You are totally impervious to explanations. You simply keep asking the same question endlessly. And I frankly don't believe that it is just because you don't understand the answers; despite the act you put on, you are quite clever. No, the reason you keep on is that you are looking for answers that confirm your beliefs. You are simply rejecting all information that does not suit your purpose.

I think you are also not a Diabetologiist/Endocrinologist/doctor or medically studied--still you know, discuss & tell more about diabetes etc. Should you be remain limited to your academic studies?

I am not, but I still know far more than you. And, you would notice, if you cared about information, that I am rather careful about not answering unless I think I know the answer.

I should not be limited in studies, and neither should you. But you are not studying, you are just throwing a lot of seemingly naive questions out, and then you cherry-pick among the answers for whatever seems to suit your purpose. Afterwards, you run to other forums and lie about having been supported here.

I don't know, what you are & what you have academically studied?

You don't? Well, I have told you often enough, but that just shows how you treat communication.

Kumar, whatever you motives for being here, you come out as an arrogant troll. You ask questions for which you don't care about the answer, you make provocations to get your point through. Despite your polite front, you talk down to people, you are constantly insulting others by ignoring their careful explanations.

Whatever flak you run into from now on, you have richly deserved it.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Kumar, you wouldn't know a bitter truth if one crept up behind you and bittered you on the bum.

Means? Somewhat 'back biting'.

Asking questions is important.

It's every bit as important that you pay attention to the answers.

I told you too much & too many being can overburden, can cause miss, weakness, pendings, mistakes, confusions etc. I don't have super super computer in my brain.

A dried squid wrapped in plastic knows more about diabetes and endocrinology than you, Kumar, so I can't see how you could possible object to having Hans point out your failings.

So, knowledges/logics can't be a personal property of anyone.