Can Disbelief Effect?

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Disbelief (i.e. the belief that something will not work) is just as much a belief as the belief that something will work. It is not the same as a lack of belief.

"Nonsense" means "lacking sense." It is not the same thing as for example, information with the opposite meaning. There is no information in nonsense.

Disbelief; mental rejection of something as untrue.
Disbelief or belief in parents as no parents or parents, can make/cause much differance.

Nonsense; words or language having no meaning or conveying no intelligible ideas.
Disbelief in patents as parents without DNA reports can be considered as non-sense inspite true in skepticism/scientific meaning.

Therefore, one may have to forget these in view of practical approach, time tested aspect & for vested interests, inspite of the fact it is not in accordance with skepticism, science, court etc.

 

[Placebo]

Nocebo

MRC_Hans posted:
It is clear that this effect can be negative also

[derail] For those who don't know, this is called the 'nocebo' effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
[/derail]

 

[MRC_Hans]

Derail? That term seems to imply that the thread was ever on some sort of track .

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Disbelief; mental rejection of something as untrue.
Disbelief or belief in parents as no parents or parents, can make/cause much differance.

Nonsense; words or language having no meaning or conveying no intelligible ideas.
Disbelief in patents as parents without DNA reports can be considered as non-sense inspite true in skepticism/scientific meaning.

Therefore, one may have to forget these in view of practical approach, time tested aspect & for vested interests, inspite of the fact it is not in accordance with skepticism, science, court etc.

Heheh, that one did shake you up, didn't it?

Several months ago, I don't remember in which connection, I mentioned the fact to Kumar that DNA surveys (made for a different reason) have disclosed that about 12% of the population do not have the biological father they're supposed to have. Not really that surprising, since surveys as far back as in the fifties have shown that 50% of married people have, at least once, been unfaithful to their partner. But is seemd to shake Kumar's picture of the world quite a bit. .... Apparantly enough to make it resurface now.

Or else the Turing bot is just shuffling old responses for lack of reaction .

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Conclusion

Translation: "I have not understood ONE word of whatever people have been trying to explain to me in this thread, so I will fall back to my usual position of sticking to my beliefs."


Good show, Kumar .




Hans

Sorry, I doubt it.

In short, homeopathic remedies or other EBHS may not effect or show real effects on non-believer or dis-believer in these so causes differances, confusions & contradictions among believer, non-believers & disbelievers. But they should understand it.

The nocebo effect is the phenonemon that a patient who believes a treatment will cause harm, will actually experience adverse effects.
The nocebo effect is distinguished from older concepts such as sociogenic illness and psychosomatic illness, which are broader terms where a known or unknown cause with cultural or psychological factors is involved. Distinguishing between these effects can be a difficult problem for medical semiotics, or the study of how to interpret the patient's description of their ailments.
The nocebo effect is the reverse of the well-known placebo effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

Placebo, thanks for indicating your 'opposite'.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Conclusion

In short, homeopathic remedies or other EBHS may not effect or show real effects on non-believer or dis-believer in these so causes differances, confusions & contradictions among believer, non-believers & disbelievers. But they should understand it.

Exactly, Kumar. Because homoepathic remedies have NO effects besides the placebo effect. I'm glad you acknowledge that.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Heheh, that one did shake you up, didn't it?

Several months ago, I don't remember in which connection, I mentioned the fact to Kumar that DNA surveys (made for a different reason) have disclosed that about 12% of the population do not have the biological father they're supposed to have. Not really that surprising, since surveys as far back as in the fifties have shown that 50% of married people have, at least once, been unfaithful to their partner. But is seemd to shake Kumar's picture of the world quite a bit. .... Apparantly enough to make it resurface now.

Or else the Turing bot is just shuffling old responses for lack of reaction .

Hans

Yes, I remember & was waiting fot this. What do you think; Is it a DNA test mistake or reality? IF reality, why skeptics/skeptic sites are not impressing/awakening people to 'accept only after DNA tests?

 

[Donks]

Re: Re: Re: Conclusion

In short, homeopathic remedies or other EBHS may not effect or show real effects on non-believer or dis-believer in these so causes differances, confusions & contradictions among believer, non-believers & disbelievers. But they should understand it.

Kumar, the point of a DBPC test is to see if the remedy has an effect when compared with people getting no remedy at all, but who believe they are gewtting a remedy. If homeopathy can't outperform that, then there is no effect. It doesn't matter how you put it, how you distort it, or your feelings on skeptics are. If homeopathy can't show an effect beyond placebo in a person that thinks they are getting treatment, then it doesn't work.

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Conclusion

Exactly, Kumar. Because homoepathic remedies have NO effects besides the placebo effect. I'm glad you acknowledge that.

Hans

Since this topic is on disbelief, I covered only disbelief & no belief. If you couldn't understand, or understood differantly, I will complete it;

In short, homeopathic remedies or other EBHS may not effect or show real effects on non-believer or dis-believer in these due to delicate & senstive effects to which non belief or disbelief can effect(shut mouth to these effects). Whereas, these EBHS will effect or show real effects to believer in these(open mouth to these type), so causes differances, confusions & contradictions among believer, non-believers & disbelievers. But they should understand it.

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Conclusion

Kumar, the point of a DBPC test is to see if the remedy has an effect when compared with people getting no remedy at all, but who believe they are gewtting a remedy. If homeopathy can't outperform that, then there is no effect. It doesn't matter how you put it, how you distort it, or your feelings on skeptics are. If homeopathy can't show an effect beyond placebo in a person that thinks they are getting treatment, then it doesn't work.

DBPC test makes a person as neutral, non-believer or disbeliever, not the believer. So in consideration of delicacy of real effects, they may not get any real effect. Homeopathic community/patients who believe & respect get real effects as they keep their mouth open, willing for these effects.

I think, specific comparative data of tests of taking any healing substance(modern medicines also) by strong belief, no belief or disbelief in these substance is not yet made.

 

[Donks]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Conclusion

DBPC test makes a person as neutral, non-believer or disbeliever, not the believer. So in consideration of delicacy of real effects, they may not get any real effect. Homeopathic community/patients who believe & respect get real effects as they keep their mouth open, willing for these effects.

A closed mouth catches no flies.

I think, specific comparative data of tests of taking any healing substance(modern medicines also) by strong belief, no belief or disbelief in these substance is not yet made.

I thinnk you're full of crap.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Conclusion

Since this topic is on disbelief, I covered only disbelief & no belief. If you couldn't understand, or understood differantly, I will complete it;

In short, homeopathic remedies or other EBHS may not effect or show real effects on non-believer or dis-believer in these due to delicate & senstive effects to which non belief or disbelief can effect(shut mouth to these effects). Whereas, these EBHS will effect or show real effects to believer in these(open mouth to these type), so causes differances, confusions & contradictions among believer, non-believers & disbelievers. But they should understand it.

I understand you perfectly. You say:

If people believe in homeopathy, they perceive a benefit. If they don't believe in it, they don't perceive a benefit.

That is a description of the placebo effect.

I notice that you try to claim that it is a real effect, but since you support it only with anecdotical evidence, including mass belief, you have no case for that. To support a claim for a real effect, you need to provide test results.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Conclusion

I understand you perfectly. You say:

If people believe in homeopathy, they perceive a benefit. If they don't believe in it, they don't perceive a benefit.

That is a description of the placebo effect.

I notice that you try to claim that it is a real effect, but since you support it only with anecdotical evidence, including mass belief, you have no case for that. To support a claim for a real effect, you need to provide test results.

Hans

Body have capacity to take or not take EBHS on Willingness(belief) & unwillingness(no/dis belief)--if we permit body to do its work by itself. Forced/induced giving is a differant thing.. In your case, body don't take.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Conclusion

Body have capacity to take or not take EBHS on Willingness(belief) & unwillingness(no/dis belief)--if we permit body to do its work by itself. Forced/induced giving is a differant thing.. In your case, body don't take.

Unsubstantiated claim.

Kumar, is this the result of all your strivings? An ad hoc thesis to explain your basic thesis?

I have a suggestion for you: Sell your computer, and get a life.

Hans

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

When I make detailed answers to post, my replies are in bold, see above. I have used this for a couple of years, on several forums. Most people have no difficulties with it. In fact, even Kumar understands, so I guess with a little bit of effort, you can, too .

It's understandable, but it does mean that you can't easily be quoted on something you have interpolated within the quote marks, because all of that text is omitted when the "quote" button is clicked.

Rolfe.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

It's understandable, but it does mean that you can't easily be quoted on something you have interpolated within the quote marks, because all of that text is omitted when the "quote" button is clicked.

Rolfe.

Well, all it takes is "just basic cut and paste" . OK, that is a point, but the only solution to that is omitting the quote tags altogether. If you answer with multiple quotes, then they are left out when somebody quotes the reply, and we get quotes that look like this (curtesy of PixyMisa):

No.

No.

What?

No.

It doesn't work.

No.

I don't think there exists an ideal solution. Some forums allow nested quotes, but that tends to become impenetrable, too.

My purpose in answering using the quote button is twofold: It gives a clear indication of who I am quoting, and it gives a sort of indication (trust-based, of course) that the original poster's text is intact. I am usually careful to put "*snip*" notes in when I leave something out.

Anyhow, it was just a snappy answer to BDZ suddenly wanting to teach me to edit .

Hans

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Kumar,

Will you be so kind as to do an experiment? Take several families you know when they are sick with a simple cold. Then in a four member family, for example, give real homeopathy to two of them, and give just sugar to the other two.

Then, keep a record of the results, maybe in terms of the time they are still sick after the sugar/medicine was given.

When you have, say, the result of 20 or more families, tell us your results.

The important thing here is that all those people believe in your methods, so the "disbelief will not effect" oh, one important thing, try to remain with the same attitude always, to not let them get suspicious about if they are getting something else that real homeopathy.

It is not strictly scientific, but I guess it can give you an idea of what we are talking about.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Anyhow, it was just a snappy answer to BDZ suddenly wanting to teach me to edit .

My bad. Apparently, you only need teaching on etiquette

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

My bad. Apparently, you only need teaching on etiquette

Afraid that is hopeless .

Hans

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

I don't think there exists an ideal solution. Some forums allow nested quotes, but that tends to become impenetrable, too.

You can do nested quotes here, but that can get complicated when someone tries to quote a post containing nested quotes (one poster insisted he was going to report me to Darat for deliberately misrepresenting him, due to a mix-up when I quoted a post of his that had nested quotes in it, how petty can you get?).

When I want to interpose my comments between chunks of a quoted post, I simply close the quote box before my comments, then open it again after I've finished so that the next part appears in a new quote box. I do this quite simply by "drag and drop" of the code already provided in the reply box.

Here endeth the public information advertisement.

Rolfe.