Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?

[Zanders]

You may be shocked to hear this, but about half of us live longer than average.

In an age/area with high child mortality, any adult (especially one old enought to be historically notable) is very likely to live longer than average. (Exception: Famous warriors, for some reason...)

84 years is not a supernatural lifespan.

So at least THAT is taken care of.

I know this is a very late reply, but I was just reading through this thread and thought that it needed clarification. It isn't just the age that makes it odd to me.

The site I posted about his death appeard to be down at the moment, but it might be fixed soon. I will quote what was written onb a different site that is pretty much the same.

"Completion of the crowning work of his theological period engrossed him. Although 82 years of age, he undertook his final, eleventh, foreign journey to promote this effort. Apparently he felt he would not return to Sweden for he made farewell calls on the members of the Board of Mines, supporters, and close friends. He arranged a pension for his faithful housekeeper, made lists of his possessions for estate distribution, and told his long-time friend and neighbor, Carl Robsahm, "Whether I shall return again, I do not know, but . . . this I can assure you, for the Lord has promised it to me, . . . I shall not die until I have received from the press this work . . . now ready to be printed." He referred to the manuscript to be published in 1771 in Holland under the title True Christian Religion."

He died a year after his magnum opus, and the stroke that later lead to his death happened only in months.

So it is the fact that he lived so long, seemed to know he would die and then had a stroke shortly after releasing the work that he said would be his last is what is fascinating. Then he passed a way the next year.

"When the book was printed Swedenborg left Amsterdam and crossed the Channel to England. He arrived in London in early September of 1771 and again rented quarters with a family named Shearsmith in Great Bath Street. Although his health declined he continued to work at his books. But in December, he suffered a stroke which destroyed his ability to speak and rendered him unconscious for most of three weeks. During January and February he gradually recovered and again talked with visitors."

"On Sunday, March 29, 1772, Mrs. Shearsmith and Elizabeth Reynolds, the maid, observed Swedenborg, waking from a long sleep. He asked the women to tell him the time of day. They replied that it was five o'clock. "That is good," Swedenborg said. "I thank you. God bless you!" He then sighed gently and died."

 

[Ririon]

I know this is a very late reply, but I was just reading through this thread and thought that it needed clarification. It isn't just the age that makes it odd to me.

The site I posted about his death appeard to be down at the moment, but it might be fixed soon. I will quote what was written onb a different site that is pretty much the same.

"Completion of the crowning work of his theological period engrossed him. Although 82 years of age, he undertook his final, eleventh, foreign journey to promote this effort. Apparently he felt he would not return to Sweden for he made farewell calls on the members of the Board of Mines, supporters, and close friends. He arranged a pension for his faithful housekeeper, made lists of his possessions for estate distribution, and told his long-time friend and neighbor, Carl Robsahm, "Whether I shall return again, I do not know, but . . . this I can assure you, for the Lord has promised it to me, . . . I shall not die until I have received from the press this work . . . now ready to be printed." He referred to the manuscript to be published in 1771 in Holland under the title True Christian Religion."

He died a year after his magnum opus, and the stroke that later lead to his death happened only in months.

So it is the fact that he lived so long, seemed to know he would die and then had a stroke shortly after releasing the work that he said would be his last is what is fascinating. Then he passed a way the next year.

"When the book was printed Swedenborg left Amsterdam and crossed the Channel to England. He arrived in London in early September of 1771 and again rented quarters with a family named Shearsmith in Great Bath Street. Although his health declined he continued to work at his books. But in December, he suffered a stroke which destroyed his ability to speak and rendered him unconscious for most of three weeks. During January and February he gradually recovered and again talked with visitors."

"On Sunday, March 29, 1772, Mrs. Shearsmith and Elizabeth Reynolds, the maid, observed Swedenborg, waking from a long sleep. He asked the women to tell him the time of day. They replied that it was five o'clock. "That is good," Swedenborg said. "I thank you. God bless you!" He then sighed gently and died."

Don't worry about it being a bit late.

OK: An 82 year old man in the 18th century suspects he will die soon, makes the proper preparations and talks to God about this? Extremely unremarkable, if you ask me. The equivalent today would probably be deeply religious Christian people in their 90s. I've been around a couple of them. This was how they behaved. Completely and utterly plain and normal behavior, IMHO.

 

[Zanders]

Don't worry about it being a bit late.

OK: An 82 year old man in the 18th century suspects he will die soon, makes the proper preparations and talks to God about this? Extremely unremarkable, if you ask me. The equivalent today would probably be deeply religious Christian people in their 90s. I've been around a couple of them. This was how they behaved. Completely and utterly plain and normal behavior, IMHO.

But what about the fact that he said that he was told he would live to get the pressing up his crowning work?

""Whether I shall return again, I do not know, but . . . this I can assure you, for the Lord has promised it to me, . . . I shall not die until I have received from the press this work . . . now ready to be printed." "

And then had a stroke shortly after it was done, dying the next year, seeming to know when he would die.

 

[Ririon]

But what about the fact that he said that he was told he would live to get the pressing up his crowning work?

""Whether I shall return again, I do not know, but . . . this I can assure you, for the Lord has promised it to me, . . . I shall not die until I have received from the press this work . . . now ready to be printed." "

And then had a stroke shortly after it was done, dying the next year, seeming to know when he would die.

Isn't that just the kind of thing God would promise to one of his faithful whether he exists or not? If this was not an especially prophetic man, you could even call this a figure of speech. Many people "refuse to die" before they can finish "important work". Religious people will attribute this to their respective gods. Some finish it, some die before they can.

As your own quote shows (highlighted), he is not sure what the future will bring.

 

[Zanders]

Isn't that just the kind of thing God would promise to one of his faithful whether he exists or not? If this was not an especially prophetic man, you could even call this a figure of speech. Many people "refuse to die" before they can finish "important work". Religious people will attribute this to their respective gods. Some finish it, some die before they can.

As your own quote shows (highlighted), he is not sure what the future will bring.

He suffered the stroke right after he left Amsterdam when the book was finished, and his health seemed to rapidly decline after it. It almost appears as hif he was being sustained until he could finish his important writings.

Here is a mention of a man who visited Swedenborg during his writing of his last book. This man's full writings can be found in the Taffel Documents I posted earlier in the section on the testimony of "Cuno".

"A skeptical but generally friendly observer visited Swedenborg in Amsterdam during the printing of True Christian Religion and reported that the seer, in spite of his advanced age, worked "indefatigably' and even "in an astonishing and superhuman way," reading proofs and returning them to the publisher. He found Swedenborg convinced that he served, as the title page stated, in the capacity of "Servant of the Lord Jesus Christ."


My mind goes crazy with this stuff, but I guess it is a habit from my old conspiracy theorist days.

 

[Ririon]

He suffered the stroke right after he left Amsterdam when the book was finished, and his health seemed to rapidly decline after it. It almost appears as hif he was being sustained until he could finish his important writings.

Here is a mention of a man who visited Swedenborg during his writing of his last book. This man's full writings can be found in the Taffel Documents I posted earlier in the section on the testimony of "Cuno".

"A skeptical but generally friendly observer visited Swedenborg in Amsterdam during the printing of True Christian Religion and reported that the seer, in spite of his advanced age, worked "indefatigably' and even "in an astonishing and superhuman way," reading proofs and returning them to the publisher. He found Swedenborg convinced that he served, as the title page stated, in the capacity of "Servant of the Lord Jesus Christ."


My mind goes crazy with this stuff, but I guess it is a habit from my old conspiracy theorist days.

Incredibly hard-working 82-year-old man working on loads of things including an important book and could quite possibly drop dead from a number of causes before or after that is finished.

Nah... There are none of those around here... Oh, wait!

 

[wardenclyffe]

He suffered the stroke right after he left Amsterdam when the book was finished,

and

He died a year after his magnum opus, and the stroke that later lead to his death happened only in months.

Which is it? He didn't write "THE END" at the bottom of a manuscript and then drop dead. He wasn't handed the first edition off the presses and drop dead. He published his thing, had a stroke months later and died a year after the book was published. He was 82. Come on. As Ririon points out, will you be claiming that it's a miracle if James Randi (age 82) finishes his current book and then dies a year later? I'm certain we can get him to make the claim that he will die sometime after the book is published (although he might hedge and say before or after---I vote for after---well after).

Ward

 

[Ririon]

OK, he felt well enough to travel abroad (in the 18th century) and he gave this prediction: "I shall not die until I have received from the press this work . . . now ready to be printed." Which means: "I shall not die in the next couple of weeks." (Or however long it takes the printing company to get the first book printed and delivered to him.

It does not predict that he would die soon afterwards.

It all seems very sane and grounded. And distinctly non-supernatural. If you are going to die from cancer or infections (like 82-year-olds would frequently do in the 18th century, I presume) then you probably have a couple of weeks notice. So if he was feeling fine at the time, he would likely live for a couple of weeks at least. Where is the unbelievably amazing part of the story?

The problem is the point of view: If you already know that this man is a great prophet with numerous superpowers including a psychic ability to see the future, then you might interpret his words differently. This starts with the conclusion and then twists the facts to fit that conclusion. That sort of reasoning is generally frowned upon around here.

 

[Zanders]

Yes, I admit that this only seems like anything special when combined with the other stories and claims about him.

When reading through the testimony in the documents I psoted earlier, it still makes me feel uncomfortable. But I seriosuly need to put it in to perspective that if he had these abilities then, somebody after him should have.

 

[Zanders]

Double post, but I waited a little too late to edit my last post.

On top of all this, when I hear comparisons made between his claimed experiences and when people have encounters with Jesus, it also bothers me.

Here is a link I posted earlier that I don't think anyone read through. The first couple of posts are unimportant, and not sourced, but later when it talks about his claims and goes in to the comparisons in experiences with Jesus and "astral projection", it makes me wonder. It also talks abotu the usual claims of scientific insight in his works.

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6606&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I'd like to see somebody completely tear this stuff apart.

Edit: Ok, this stuff is a lot more unimpressive than I remembered it after reading it again after all of this time. In fact, a lot of it is painfully stupid. I would still like some comments on the claims on NDE that include Jesus even for atheists, but it is mostly poorly sourced speculation with a lot of things that are proven false by science. One of the later posts even claims the somebody was cured of AIDs, what the hell?

Look at a lot of the stuff I was inclined to believe when I first arrived here is pretty sad.

 

[Ririon]

Double post, but I waited a little too late to edit my last post.

On top of all this, when I hear comparisons made between his claimed experiences and when people have encounters with Jesus, it also bothers me.

Here is a link I posted earlier that I don't think anyone read through. The first couple of posts are unimportant, and not sourced, but later when it talks about his claims and goes in to the comparisons in experiences with Jesus and "astral projection", it makes me wonder. It also talks abotu the usual claims of scientific insight in his works.

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6606&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I'd like to see somebody completely tear this stuff apart.

Edit: Ok, this stuff is a lot more unimpressive than I remembered it after reading it again after all of this time. In fact, a lot of it is painfully stupid. I would still like some comments on the claims on NDE that include Jesus even for atheists, but it is mostly poorly sourced speculation with a lot of things that are proven false by science. One of the later posts even claims the somebody was cured of AIDs, what the hell?

Look at a lot of the stuff I was inclined to believe when I first arrived here is pretty sad.

Done. Welcome to the dark side. Hope you enjoy the complimentary cookies.

 

[Zanders]

But on a different note, I do find it fascinating how many vivid encounters with Jesus I hear about. Even from atheists or people that had never shown any sign of delusion before. And the encounters are usually very consistent.

I'm certain that the Bible is completely false, but I still don't know about the historic Jesus. And when I read about experiences and NDE's people have had before, the "Man of light" a lot of them meet fits what a lot of people say about when they meet Jesus. The feeling they get, and the fact that he is so bright, seems very consistent.

Any explanations for this?

 

[Ririon]

But on a different note, I do find it fascinating how many vivid encounters with Jesus I hear about. Even from atheists or people that had never shown any sign of delusion before. And the encounters are usually very consistent.

I'm certain that the Bible is completely false, but I still don't know about the historic Jesus. And when I read about experiences and NDE's people have had before, the "Man of light" a lot of them meet fits what a lot of people say about when they meet Jesus. The feeling they get, and the fact that he is so bright, seems very consistent.

Any explanations for this?

Maybe they have heard about him, before? He IS quite famous, you know. By now, he is probably bigger than The Beatles.

 

[Zanders]

Maybe they have heard about him, before? He IS quite famous, you know. By now, he is probably bigger than The Beatles.

But some people just see a being of light. He is often identified as Jesus, but some just call him a man of light.

Even the "Lord" Swedenborg said he encountered was surrounded in light, although the imperial purple is original.

"The information respecting the Lord's personal appearance before the assessor, who saw Him, in imperial purple and majestic light, seated near his bed while He gave Assessor Swedenborg his commission, I had from his own lips at a dinner-party in the home of Dr. Rosen, where I saw the old gentleman for the first time. I remember that I asked him how long this lasted; to which he replied, "About a quarter of an hour." Also whether the strong light did not affect his eyes; when he said, "No."

 

[nadsat]

Like this ?

amazing.

is there a thread on this site where similar vids are conveniently collected? I want more.

 

[Ririon]

But some people just see a being of light. He is often identified as Jesus, but some just call him a man of light.

Even the "Lord" Swedenborg said he encountered was surrounded in light, although the imperial purple is original.

"The information respecting the Lord's personal appearance before the assessor, who saw Him, in imperial purple and majestic light, seated near his bed while He gave Assessor Swedenborg his commission, I had from his own lips at a dinner-party in the home of Dr. Rosen, where I saw the old gentleman for the first time. I remember that I asked him how long this lasted; to which he replied, "About a quarter of an hour." Also whether the strong light did not affect his eyes; when he said, "No."

A being of light? Much like many alien/angel/whatever stories? There may be some common human physiology/psychology aspect to the "glowing light" thing. I don't know.

It sounds plausible enough, though. If you saw Jesus, how would he appear? Dark? Dirty? Filling you with hate and angst? Coming from below? Not likely. If you happened to have hallucinations like that, you would attribute them to something else. And hopefully stop taking those drugs.

People (or at least half the world's population) KNOW roughly how Jesus would appear to them. It is not such a shock that he usually looks like that when he shows up. Extra credit for the Purple Haze, though. (I am a Jimi Hendrix fan.)

 

[Zanders]

There is also cases like the famous Theosophist (who later left and formed Anthroposophy), Rudolf Steiner.

To quote from wikipedia

"In 1899 Steiner experienced what he described as a life-transforming inner encounter with the being of Christ; previously he had little or no relation to Christianity in any form. Then and thereafter, his relationship to Christianity remained entirely founded upon personal experience, and thus both non-denominational and strikingly different from conventional religious forms."

I just find it interesting that so many people have such powerful life changing experiences related to this being. I don't believe Christianity or think the Bible is inspired at all, but there are a bunch of other strange theories in my head back from whene I used to read all of this stuff.

But yes, like you said Jesus is one of the most important and followed religious figures in the world, so it would make sense that so many people think they see him. Even atheists would have knowledge of him and his religion. But the experiences that I hear about seem rather consistent, and no other religious experiences seem quite like it, although the description fits well with supposed alien encounters and abductions.

 

[Ririon]

There is also cases like the famous Theosophist (who later left and formed Anthroposophy), Rudolf Steiner.

Also very much like the prophet Muhammad and his encounter with the angel Gabriel. And most shamans (or equivalent) around the world. But Jesus would probably be the most popular figure to be visited by the last few hundred years, I guess.

But yes, like you said Jesus is one of the most important and followed religious figures in the world, so it would make sense that so many people think they see him. Even atheists would have knowledge of him and his religion. But the experiences that I hear about seem rather consistent, and no other religious experiences seem quite like it, although the description fits well with supposed alien encounters and abductions.

Of course it is consistent, or at least "rather consistent". If people were seeing Jesus as various farm animals in assorted pastel colors, then that would be rather consistent, too. If only one guy sees Jesus as a turquoise cow, then he is dismissed as rather silly by most people. If he sees him as he is supposed to, a 30-something guy with long dark hair, literally glowing with light and love, then that will be taken seriously by many. Just do a Google image search for Jesus.

 

[Apology]

Also very much like the prophet Muhammad and his encounter with the angel Gabriel. And most shamans (or equivalent) around the world. But Jesus would probably be the most popular figure to be visited by the last few hundred years, I guess.

Of course it is consistent, or at least "rather consistent". If people were seeing Jesus as various farm animals in assorted pastel colors, then that would be rather consistent, too. If only one guy sees Jesus as a turquoise cow, then he is dismissed as rather silly by most people. If he sees him as he is supposed to, a 30-something guy with long dark hair, literally glowing with light and love, then that will be taken seriously by many. Just do a Google image search for Jesus.

I also find it interesting that there's no physical description of Jesus in the Bible. Literally, nobody knows what he looked like. However, people since Jesus' time have imagined what he looked like, and the most popular of these imaginings has taken hold to become an archetype. This archetype is what people report seeing during their experiences.

I don't want to turn this into a pissing match or a religion thread, so I'm just going to drop this link for Zanders:

Did Jesus Exist?

It's up to you, Zanders, to decide what to believe in light of this link. Lack of evidence of existence isn't necessarily evidence of lack of existence, but it is a significant clue in my estimation. Zanders, please note that this paper is very well-referenced; however, you must still consider the source and the agenda of the writer. I don't have any irons in this particular fire, so I'll simply say that I found the argument made in the article compelling.

 

[Zanders]

I also find it interesting that there's no physical description of Jesus in the Bible. Literally, nobody knows what he looked like. However, people since Jesus' time have imagined what he looked like, and the most popular of these imaginings has taken hold to become an archetype. This archetype is what people report seeing during their experiences.

I don't want to turn this into a pissing match or a religion thread, so I'm just going to drop this link for Zanders:

Did Jesus Exist?

It's up to you, Zanders, to decide what to believe in light of this link. Lack of evidence of existence isn't necessarily evidence of lack of existence, but it is a significant clue in my estimation. Zanders, please note that this paper is very well-referenced; however, you must still consider the source and the agenda of the writer. I don't have any irons in this particular fire, so I'll simply say that I found the argument made in the article compelling.

I certainly don't believe that the Jesus of the Bible or Quran existed. There are too many historic flaws and impossibilities for that. I still wonder about the historic Jesus, but he is most likely a composite character.

I'm mainly wondering if there is some sort of reality to these encounters, whatever they may be. Maybe people are seeing it as whatever they expect or want it to be, maybe they even disguise themselves as important figures.

I know this isn't the most logical theory, but I just wonder how so many people who are perfectly sane have these experiences.