Camera work of Apollo 17

If what you write is intended as more than pure disinformation then please provide some evidence. By the way, we are dealing with a photo having been taken shortly after undocking of 1969-07-20, 17:44 (see Apollo 11 timetable).

OK

https://archive.org/details/Apollo1116mmOnboardFilm

and photographed in magazine N

SIV-B separation and docking with the LM is at 08:10. The view of Earth you get briefly in that can be verified in two separate weather satellite images.

http://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/CATM/ch4/a11/ch4_3_1a.html

The undocking in lunar orbit can be seen at about 14:00. The same video shows the CSM from the LM's perspective. Let's see if you aren't too lazy to find it (especially as you've already been given it).

Photographs of the LM taken from the CSM's perspective can be seen in Magazine V, complete with time and date specific views of Earth taken shortly beforehand.
 
If we take into account the Lunar Landing Module LM was a prototype which never had been properly tested...

Except that it wasn't a prototype, it was the fifth flight-qualified article. And it was properly tested.

And yes, as a fully-qualified aerospace engineer I can teach at least an hour-long lecture off the top of my head on the testing regime of the lunar module. But unfortunately you made the claim that it wasn't properly tested. That means the onus is on you. The test regime that the LM was subjected to is a matter of documentation. It's up to you to show why that was insufficient or inappropriate. Your claim = your burden of proof.

By the way, isn't the blue, maybe ocean-reflected color on the sun-side of the Command Module strong evidence that the photo is a photomontage?

I don't see anything in the light reflected from the command module that I don't expect to see. But then again I know what substances the coating of the CM were made from, and their optical properties.

You seem to be claiming it's reflecting an ocean. Your claim = your burden of proof.

My use of above and below (beneath) was both with respect to the CSM (Command and Service Module) and with respect to the moon.

Except your use of "above" and "beneath" in your original most was all over the map, covering both transposition and docking and the lunar orbit checkout, both the static arrangement of the spacecraft components in the launch vehicle and the dynamic relative positions of the spacecraft in lunar orbit. You just threw a bunch of mud against the wall and hoped some of it stuck.

If what you write is intended as more than pure disinformation then please provide some evidence. By the way, we are dealing with a photo having been taken shortly after undocking...

...after which the two spacecraft were pursuing different orbits, one of which took the LM higher than the CM for a portion of the orbit. You don't understand how orbits work.

In any case, future will show who is lying by naïveté, by implication or even by intention.

No, the present shows it adequately. You have absolutely no clue how these spacecraft were designed, built, tested, and flown. All your threads demonstrate this. And you think everyone else is as ignorant as you, such that you can just spout nonsense and no one will catch you.

You've provided absolutely zero evidence to support the claims you're making here, and a lot of people are still trying to figure out what your claims are. You seem to think the arrangement of the spacecraft and the Moon as depicted in the photo is self-evidently wrong. Please fill in the gaps in your argument so that it's clear what you're actually claiming is wrong. We can't read your mind.
 
IIRC, didn't the LM need to get in front (?) of the CM so it could be eyeballed for damage from the astronaut in the CM and visa versa?

Yes, part of the flight plan was a visual inspection of the LM. In order for that to happen, the LM merely needs to be a suitable distance away, far enough to avoid actual contact or damage from RCS plumes yet near enough that any damage will be clearly visible. Your uncertainly on "in front" is appropriate, as it doesn't largely matter in which direction the LM effects a separation maneuver. As some have pointed out, placing the LM above the CSM in orbit may allow favorable illumination.
 
You have absolutely no clue how these spacecraft were designed, built, tested, and flown.

Which I think is the real tragedy here. These programs were thoroughly documented and are a great lesson in everything from organizational design to basic physics, much less the really impressive engineering. For anyone to take an interest in the Apollo missions and be sidetracked by the idea they didn't happen really misses the impressiveness of what did happen.

It is like arguing that the sun will never rise again instead of enjoying the beauty of the sunset.
 
I don't see anything in the light reflected from the command module that I don't expect to see. But then again I know what substances the coating of the CM were made from, and their optical properties.

I'm looking at a high quality scan of AS11-37-5445 on the Apollo Image Archive site right now and I don't see anything that really looks blue on the CM.
 
Wolfgang seems to be suggesting that, even if this was done, it's impossible to believe that at some point in the process the LM was further from the lunar surface than the CM, and is backing this up by suggesting that putting the LM into an orbit that took it to a slightly higher altitude was such a dangerous manoevre that it's unthinkable that it should be even attempted. This is, of course, utter nonsense.

Dave
I guess I recalled correctly! Yea for me!
 
wogoga said:
...If we take into account the Lunar Landing Module LM was a prototype

Nope.

wogoga said:
which never had been properly tested*

Nope. You have no idea what you're talking about.

wogoga said:
then dealing primarily with PR instead of safety

Nope. In fact, you have it exactly backwards.

wogoga said:
would have been grossly negligent.

Since literally everything you've said here has been wrong, no one cares about your ignorant ideas of what constitutes "negligence", other than to point and laugh. I have formal training and experience in Safety and Mission Assurance, but any interested layman could spend an hour reading - from a cold start - and understand why everything you've said is nonsense.

wogoga said:
* If somebody thinks that this is not true then he should be able to provide evidence for proper testing of the Lunar Landing Module.

"I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm going to say a bunch of spectacularly wrong things, and it's up to other people to do my homework for me."

Nope.

I've performed thermal-vac testing in one of the chambers used to test the Apollo Lunar Module. You can't even get the name right.

I would be happy to help, for free, any interested layman who honestly wanted to learn more about the subject, and not just listen to himself blither. You may feel free to inquire as to my hourly rate.
 
I'm looking at a high quality scan of AS11-37-5445 on the Apollo Image Archive site right now and I don't see anything that really looks blue on the CM.

Color is tricky, especially in film. Unless there's a color card in the image always assume the colors you're seeing may be wrong.

It's perfectly reasonable that two images made from the same negative can show different colors, especially if you're looking at it on two different monitors which might not be adjusted properly, and so on. So I'm not surprised that one image might show a slight blue tint, while a second doesn't.

Remember the story of the Orion slave girl.
 
Color is tricky, especially in film. Unless there's a color card in the image always assume the colors you're seeing may be wrong.

It's perfectly reasonable that two images made from the same negative can show different colors, especially if you're looking at it on two different monitors which might not be adjusted properly, and so on. So I'm not surprised that one image might show a slight blue tint, while a second doesn't.

Remember the story of the Orion slave girl.

And today I learned something new :D
 
The LLM had been tested, short of the actual lunar landing, in the Apollo 9 and 10 missions, in which exactly this sort of manoevre could easily have been carried out, and most likely was given that it's effectively the only way of separating and re-connecting the two components. I think maybe you should read up on those missions, since you've clearly never heard of them.

Why does everyone forget Apollo 5?

And of course Apollo 11 was a test flight too, a manned landing test.
 
Is the photo below a paradigm of fake photos? It would have been rather nonsensical for the Lunar Module to climb above the Command Module only in order to take a picture.

I guess we can add orbital mechanics to the vast pile of stuff you know nothing about. It's not as if coelliptical orbits are difficult to understand.


According to Apollo 11 Timeline "Coelliptic sequence initiation ignition" seems to have occurred only the next day when the Lunar Landing Module returned to the CSM. Thus, if the Wikipedia description (see #118) is correct then "coelliptical orbits" cannot explain our photo and the video Apollo 11 - 16-mm magazine 1127-G.


... everybody who knows anything about Apollo knows that the CM/SM had to turn around to dock to the LM as part of separation from the S-IVB ...


You are right. I missed the "fact" that already 3 hours 15 minutes after Saturn V launch (still close to the Earth) the Lunar Landing Module LM together with the third rocket stage S-IVB was transferred from "behind" to the top side of the Command & Service Module CSM (Apollo 11 Timeline):

003:15:23 — CSM separated from S-IVB
003:17:05 — CSM separation maneuver ignition
003:17:12 — CSM separation maneuver cutoff
003:24:04 — CSM docked with LM/S-IVB
004:17:03 — CSM/LM ejected from S-IVB
004:40:02 — CSM/LM evasive maneuver from S-IVB ignition
004:40:05 — CSM/LM evasive maneuver from S-IVB cutoff
It seems that photo AS11-36-5313 is intended as proof of this transfer:

480px-AS11-36-5313_%2821710770101%29.jpg


The "docked configuration" according to Flight Plan, Final – July 1, 1969:

apollo11docked.JPG


The result is partially visible on photo (AS11-36-5404):

AS11-36-5404.jpg


Cheers, Wolfgang
pandualism.com/d/apollo.html
 
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You are right. I missed the "fact" that already 3 hours 15 minutes after Saturn V launch (still close to the Earth) the Lunar Landing Module LM together with the third rocket stage S-IVB was transferred from "behind" to the top side of the Command & Service Module CSM (Apollo 11 Timeline):

003:15:23 — CSM separated from S-IVB
003:17:05 — CSM separation maneuver ignition
003:17:12 — CSM separation maneuver cutoff
003:24:04 — CSM docked with LM/S-IVB
004:17:03 — CSM/LM ejected from S-IVB
004:40:02 — CSM/LM evasive maneuver from S-IVB ignition
004:40:05 — CSM/LM evasive maneuver from S-IVB cutoff

Based on the fact that, through your own admission above, you haven't been able to figure out one of the simplest and most obvious facts about the Apollo missions (as in, I could figure this one out very easily when I was nine years old, yet you've only just worked it out today), don't you think this casts at least a tiny fragment of doubt in your mind as to whether you actually understand the far more complex and subtle facts about it that you claim to?

Dave
 
According to Apollo 11 Timeline "Coelliptic sequence initiation ignition" seems to have occurred only the next day when the Lunar Landing Module returned to the CSM. Thus, if the Wikipedia description is correct then "coelliptical orbits" cannot explain our photo and the video Apollo 11 - 16-mm magazine 1127-G.

That's right, it doesn't, and if you paid any attention at all to the things that were written in response to your 'finding's you would know that the footage in that youtube link does not show footage of the LM re-uniting with the CSM. In fact, all you had to do was read the youtube description:

Command Service Module Columbia filmed shortly after undocking

The footage of the LM rejoining the CSM is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB4TenTk-Bc

If you look very carefully at the end you'll see a view of Earth. It matches exactly the Earth shown in still images taken at the same time, as can be seen here using AS11-44-6642 as an example:

nWhQiZr.jpg


It shows the correct weather patterns, terminator and land mass configuration for the time it was taken. Oh, and in case you think it was all cobbled together recently, you can also find that glimpse of Earth shown in the 16mm stills printed in the 1969 Life Magazine souvenir special:

http://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/life/special.pdf

Then we have:

You are right. I missed the "fact" that already 3 hours 15 minutes after Saturn V launch (still close to the Earth) the Lunar Landing Module LM together with the third rocket stage S-IVB was transferred from "behind" to the top side of the Command & Service Module CSM (Apollo 11 Timeline):

003:15:23 — CSM separated from S-IVB
003:17:05 — CSM separation maneuver ignition
003:17:12 — CSM separation maneuver cutoff
003:24:04 — CSM docked with LM/S-IVB
004:17:03 — CSM/LM ejected from S-IVB
004:40:02 — CSM/LM evasive maneuver from S-IVB ignition
004:40:05 — CSM/LM evasive maneuver from S-IVB cutoff
It seems that photo AS11-36-5313 is intended as proof of this transfer:

[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/AS11-36-5313_%2821710770101%29.jpg/480px-AS11-36-5313_%2821710770101%29.jpg[/qimg]

As well as the 16mm footage I showed you, and also the other photos in the docking sequence on that Hasselblad magazine.

The "docked configuration" according to Flight Plan, Final – July 1, 1969:

[qimg]http://www.pandualism.com/upload/apollo11docked.JPG[/qimg]

The result is partially visible on photo (AS11-36-5404):

[qimg]https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a11/AS11-36-5404.jpg[/qimg]

The Earth in shot there was taken at around 16:30 GMT on July 19th.

Here it is compared with the satellite image taken on the same day:

wpf0c893f4_05_06.jpg


Are you getting this yet?
 
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...I missed the "fact" that already 3 hours 15 minutes after Saturn V launch (still close to the Earth) the Lunar Landing Module LM...

As I pointed out earlier while enumerating your numerous failures in bloviating about testing the Lunar Module, you can't even get the name of the spacecraft right, let alone understand how any of it really works.

Now, suppose I went onto a medical forum populated by doctors, nurses, and interested laymen, and asserted that the spleen was responsible for, say, respiration. Once this ignorant mistake was pointed out to me, would I stubbornly dismiss my interlocutors, and then go on to assert that there is no such thing as the lymphatic system? No, of course not; I would be embarrassed by my ignorance and try to learn about the subject, not simply try to project my prejudices onto more googled-up factoids.

But that's just me. What about you? Aren't you ever embarrassed by being so wrong, so often? Wouldn't you rather learn from experts, rather than stubbornly repeating yourself and Gish-galloping across further expanses of ignorance?
 
Now, suppose I went onto a medical forum populated by doctors, nurses, and interested laymen, and asserted that the spleen was responsible for, say, respiration.

If only it were that obscure. Wolfgang has made it clear that he finds it difficult to understand that, if at one time one end of an object is pointing at another object, and if at another later time the other end is pointing at that other object, said first object must in the meantime have turned round. I find it hard to see how a small child could fail to grasp that point.

Dave
 
As I recall, this has happened multiple times on aulis up to and including their star White admitting in a court of law that he had no clue what photogrammetry was in any context. He actually had not even heard of it.

...

I await your cogent explanation.

Which White was this?
 

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