Camera work of Apollo 17

This is a poe, isn't it? I mean, no-one in their right minds believes crap like this, surely. Why is this nonsense so important to you, wogoga, that you are prepared to make yourself look foolish in pursuing it?

It's the sort of thing you get from an "intellectual" who overthinks his details while under-thinking his premise.
 
Do you know a concrete example?

Practically the entirety of lunar EVA stations in the J-missions. They all show the behavior of dust kicked by astronauts as they walk.

It is difficult to find Apollo film sequences where it is easy to count steps or jumps and estimate speed.

Why would you say that? All your references are to YouTube, so I daresay you haven't surveyed enough of the Apollo record, or know its customary sources, to make this determination. If you use the actual sources instead of convenience sources you find on the web, perhaps you'll have more luck.

It seems obvious that this Apollo 11 stuff has been filmed under terrestrial and not lunar gravity. The whole looks strange because it has been captured at a very low frame rate but is shown at "fast motion". The movements of the astronauts are quite unnatural (like in old films of Charlie Chaplin).

Nope. Ditto the rest of the paranoid fantasy that forms most of the rest of this post. You simply look at at a small sample of video and decide it has all been faked. For Apollo 12, for example, you say NASA hid their inability to simulate low gravity by simply not having the television camera work. You apparently don't realize there was 16mm film shot on the mission.

...far from what JayUtah in #33 considers a "decent velocity".

Straw man. I was discussing the fantastic velocities you suggest would have been possible. I was asking you to solve the dynamics problems that would arise from such velocity. You didn't do so, which suggests you realize it would be absurd to expect such reckless horizontal velocities. My point, which you missed entirely, is that the conservative speed you generally see in Apollo film is prudent for the conditions. No anomaly, no need to explain it.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the astronauts, according to your argument, should have been going roughly as fast as I said -- with all the attendant dynamics problems that you lack the skill to understand or quantify -- or they should have been moving at the slower speeds we see, that you conjecturally attribute to fakery.

Yes, humans have a much faster step rate than you see in the Apollo videos when in normal Earth gravity and not wearing restrictive clothing. You neglect that diminished gravity and clothing that was intentionally restrictive would not allow such a step rate. What we see in the Apollo videos is exactly what we expect to see under the purported circumstances. You claim this is achieved by slowing down filmed action. This requires an actor to maintain high step rates and jump rates in restrictive costumes for considerable uninterrupted time. This was tested on the program I mentioned. It is not sustainable, and when slowed down it does not produce the same effect as we see in Apollo motion pictures.

If this is true then such an assisted jump makes look the other non-assisted jumps even more suspicious.

How so?

Besides, your claim was that no feats of diminished gravity appeared in the record. You are simply factually wrong. Instead of owning that error, which obviously derives from your inattentive and incomplete survey of the evidence, you simply ran off in a new direction and accused it of being "assisted." Coming on the heels of your prior failed claim that was also based on relative inexperience with the evidence, you should have been more careful about asserting what is or isn't so in this body of evidence.

Sorry, none of this is convincing. You obviously have seen only very little of the relevant film, so your attempts to characterize it all as fake fall comically flat. You have clearly done no computations or tests to validate your hypothesis. Your argument boils down simply to looking at a few minutes of video and declaring your opinion that it's fake. Arguments from incredulity are not convincing, especially to people around here, many of whom are quite familiar with the Apollo record.
 
This is a poe, isn't it? I mean, no-one in their right minds believes crap like this, surely. Why is this nonsense so important to you, wogoga, that you are prepared to make yourself look foolish in pursuing it?

The sources he's using are 15-20 years old, and generally reflect arguments that were popular then. They got more traction back then, mostly because resources like my web site and Phil Plait's book were not widely available to debunk the theories. After 9/11 most of the very tin-foily conspiracy theorists jumped on that band wagon and hoaxed Moon landing theories were passe. There are only a few prominent die-hards like Jim Fetzer and Alex Jones who even talk about this anymore. From what I've seen, the Apollo-hoaxers who are left standing tend to be the most unhinged of the conspiracy crowd.
 
It seems obvious that this Apollo 11 stuff has been filmed under terrestrial and not lunar gravity. The whole looks strange because it has been captured at a very low frame rate but is shown at "fast motion".

You have this backwards! To replay in "slow motion" you record at a fast frame rate and play back at a slower frame rate.

Common color video is 29.97 frames per second.


Let's say we up that record rate to 299.7 frames per second.
You now shoot a man running for 100 seconds(real time)
at 299.7 fps you have 29970 frames of video

Now replay at 29.97 fps
It takes 1000 seconds to get through 29970 frames

The man now appears to take ten times as long to run the same distance.


THIS was apparently shot at 1 million frames per second and is playing back at ~30 fps.
 
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I would marvel at the ability to have the Russians and Chinese on board for this fakery. I would wonder at how they managed to convince the Soviets to sit back and take this public shaming of their efforts without blowing the whistle.


It may be one of those massive global conspiracies, like the one someone was bouncing around here a while back that nuclear weapons don't actually exist and every country claiming to have them is participating in the hoax. As I recall, they claimed that Japan set fire to Hiroshima and Nagasaki themselves as part of the plot.
 
It may be one of those massive global conspiracies, like the one someone was bouncing around here a while back that nuclear weapons don't actually exist and every country claiming to have them is participating in the hoax. As I recall, they claimed that Japan set fire to Hiroshima and Nagasaki themselves as part of the plot.

Yeah, well, Moon Hoaxery isn't too far behind the lunacy of nuclear hoax believers, imho.
 
So in order to 'fake' vertical motions, the astronauts simply applied more force to objects that went up.

Didn't Buzz Aldrin jump straight up at one point? IIRC it did not look like he was performing an NBA dunk champ jump.
 
The movements of the astronauts were unnatural?
I agree, it's like they weren't even on planet Earth.
 
It is difficult to find Apollo film sequences where it is easy to count steps or jumps and estimate speed. The astronauts avoid regular, normal movements. The best sequence of Apollo 11 I could find is from Apollo 11 - Raw 16mm footage (uncut), from 15:00 to 21:00, especially at 17:45.

It seems obvious that this Apollo 11 stuff has been filmed under terrestrial and not lunar gravity. The whole looks strange because it has been captured at a very low frame rate but is shown at "fast motion". The movements of the astronauts are quite unnatural (like in old films of Charlie Chaplin).

The slate at the beginning says quite clearly that it was shot at 12 frames per second.

Here is 12fps on Earth
 
Do you know a concrete example? And if yes, how do you know that what you see in such an Apollo video actually is dust which should be relevantly influenced by the atmosphere? Apart from "atmospheric friction", granular material on the moon behaves in the same way as on Earth when filmed and slowed down to 1/√6 ≈ 41%. Granular material stirred up by the lunar rover would rise six times higher on the moon than on Earth in case of identical speed.

No, this is simply not correct. You would not pass my ninth-grade ESL Integrated Physics class.

1. First, air resistance is an actual effect, and referring to it in scare quotes does not make it go away.

2. The air resistance has a specific effect on particles; this effect is the reason we do practical demonstrations of parabolic trajectories with relatively heavy objects in relatively small trajectories, so that the effect of air resistance may be practically overlooked. You may redeem yourself by describing that effect; and by identifying a practical example on earth (where, one presumes, you wish the Apollo films had been faked). (Hint: it is not simply "falling more slowly".)

3. Unsurprisingly, you have it backward. Remember that you wish the Apollo films had been faked on earth; to achieve the measurable speeds in the films, the Rover would have had to be going faster on earth, resulting in higher roostertails, for one, and in much more suspension activity, for another.

I eagerly await your redemptive answer in #2, for at least partial credit.
 
Apart from "atmospheric friction", granular material on the moon behaves in the same way as on Earth when filmed and slowed down to 1/√6 ≈ 41%. Granular material stirred up by the lunar rover would rise six times higher on the moon than on Earth in case of identical speed.


No, this is simply not correct. You would not pass my ninth-grade ESL Integrated Physics class.


My claim of an inverse proportionality between height of ejected material and gravity (in case of identical rover speed) is correct under the following unstated premise: Average velocity of particles catapulted out of the granular material is proportional to rover speed. Therefore increasing rover speed by factor √6 increases by 6 not only kinetic energy of the rover but also average kinetic energy of ejected granular material. And both height and length of parabolic trajectories are proportional to kinetic energy (assuming identical gravity).


To achieve the measurable speeds in the films, the Rover would have had to be going faster on earth, resulting in higher roostertails, for one, and in much more suspension activity, for another.


A fake rover on Earth must be √6 = 2.45 times faster than an original lunar rover. Kinetic energies of particles ejected by the wheels on Earth are then 6 times higher than in the lunar situation. Gravitational downward acceleration (and potential energy per height) on Earth is also 6 times higher. Thus we get the same "rooster tail" height with increased speed as we would get on the moon with the original speed.

Also "suspension activity" turns out to be identical if the vehicle suspension of the terrestrial rover has 6 times higher spring constants.
This can easily be recognized if the rovers are at rest: Let us assume identical total rover mass despite different spring constants. On Earth, weight affecting the springs is 6 times higher, and spring constants are 6 times higher than in the original lunar case. Thus we get the same spring deflections (displacements under load) as on the moon.

Concerning forces emerging due to accelerations of parts or the whole, not weight but mass is relevant. Rover mass is the same in both cases. The √6 speed increase (resulting in less time per length) on Earth leads to a corresponding increase of all accelerations by factor 6 (since acceleration is inversely proportional to square of time). Thus, also forces due to this increased speed are six times higher and lead to exactly the same spring deflections as on the moon with the original speed.


Show us any video shot on Earth of a vehicle travelling over a dusty surface where the material rises and falls in the way it does on the moon without creating a billowing cloud of dust.


Why are you convinced that what you belief to have seen in corresponding film sequences was dry lunar dust? It could have been heavy mineral sand. Several mechanisms can prevent a cloud of dust, e.g. humidity resp. wetness (with water or another substance), a vacuum cleaner pre-removing all dust particles, and so on. At least what is shown with the Apollo 16 rover could easily have been faked on Earth. See for instance (short videos):

To the second video corresponds an excellent paper of Oleg Oleynik:

Exceptional claims need exceptional evidence. The claim of having accomplished the extremely difficult task of bringing men to the moon and back already more than four decades ago is very exceptional. Therefore, only evidence which could not have been faked with the then technology should be taken seriously.
Cheers, Wolfgang
The Apollo Space Program – A gigantic conspiracy?
Debunking is not the same as declaring to have debunked
 
My claim of an inverse proportionality between height of ejected material and gravity (in case of identical rover speed) is correct under the following unstated premise: Average velocity of particles catapulted out of the granular material is proportional to rover speed.

You really should get a basic physics class. Gravity is about acceleration towards the center of mass, not the speed of travel within the field.



Exceptional claims need exceptional evidence.

There's nothing exceptional about going to the moon, physically speaking. Regardless, we have tons of evidence. Well, kilograms, anyway, in the moon rocks, hundreds of hours of film, recordings, lift-offs and enemy countries confirming the physics and reality of the missions, plus all the people who worked to realise it.
 
My claim of an inverse proportionality between height of ejected material and gravity (in case of identical rover speed) is correct under the following unstated premise: Average velocity of particles catapulted out of the granular material is proportional to rover speed. Therefore increasing rover speed by factor √6 increases by 6 not only kinetic energy of the rover but also average kinetic energy of ejected granular material. And both height and length of parabolic trajectories are proportional to kinetic energy (assuming identical gravity).
Nope. It depends on the wheel speed not the vehicle speed. What is the coefficient of friction between wheel and regolith? Do you know? Of course not.

If your wild claim was true, drifting would be impossible. Are you claiming that drifting is fake?

A fake rover on Earth must be √6 = 2.45 times faster than an original lunar rover. Kinetic energies of particles ejected by the wheels on Earth are then 6 times higher than in the lunar situation. Gravitational downward acceleration (and potential energy per height) on Earth is also 6 times higher. Thus we get the same "rooster tail" height with increased speed as we would get on the moon with the original speed.
Drifters get no rooster tails at all on earth. Why do you think that is?

Also "suspension activity" turns out to be identical if the vehicle suspension of the terrestrial rover has 6 times higher spring constants.
This can easily be recognized if the rovers are at rest:
This is such a messed up claim that it is uncertain if you even know what you are claiming.

Let us assume identical total rover mass despite different spring constants. On Earth, weight affecting the springs is 6 times higher, and spring constants are 6 times higher than in the original lunar case. Thus we get the same spring deflections (displacements under load) as on the moon.
Wrong again.

Concerning forces emerging due to accelerations of parts or the whole, not weight but mass is relevant. Rover mass is the same in both cases.
Sure, but right after you claim...

The √6 speed increase (resulting in less time per length) on Earth leads to a corresponding increase of all accelerations by factor 6 (since acceleration is inversely proportional to square of time). Thus, also forces due to this increased speed are six times higher and lead to exactly the same spring deflections as on the moon with the original speed.
Which is irrelevant, if as you claim that only mass is relevant. You cannot have it both ways. Is mass relevant? Or weight? You have claimed both.

Why are you convinced that what you belief to have seen in corresponding film sequences was dry lunar dust? It could have been heavy mineral sand.
It could have been fairy dust. Prove me wrong.

Several mechanisms can prevent a cloud of dust, e.g. humidity resp. wetness (with water or another substance), a vacuum cleaner pre-removing all dust particles, and so on. At least what is shown with the Apollo 16 rover could easily have been faked on Earth. See for instance (short videos):
Here we go again. This rot has been comprehensively shown to be utter bunk.

Try to keep up.

Look at this youboob. You think this is convincing? Oleg is completely imaginary and it was predicted already in this very thread that you would resort to the Aulis nonsense.

More Aulis nonsense.

Exceptional claims need exceptional evidence. The claim of having accomplished the extremely difficult task of bringing men to the moon and back already more than four decades ago is very exceptional. Therefore, only evidence which could not have been faked with the then technology should be taken seriously.
Cheers, Wolfgang
And we have that evidence. Nobody can help that you can't figure it out, that's your issue.
 

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