CALLING ALL SCEPTICS: Can somebody PLEASE Prove me wrong?

[Open Mind]

should like to ask you why you have chosen this particular thread to drone out your usual rubbish, rather than any other? Is your gibble-gabble more relevant here than anywhere else? Why?

Perhaps because the usually harsh skeptics are tolerating ‘faith’ religions while being very hostile to any belief systems claiming evidence (i.e. generally a skeptic's mysterious paranormal ability to know truth from a armchair before investigation because they have ‘faith’ in someone else'ss skeptical opinion) On reading such claims of evidence – hostility, on considering the claim - hostility, if ever getting around to examining the claim – more hostility ….it’s almost like some sort of skeptic religion is being defended….. To me that is bizarre

In reply to the original post[/b] : your points seem to be these

(1) Let's have so broad a definition of God that anything can be God that anyone admires, and that's just fine.
(2) But I'm going to be a Christian.
(3) Fundies are bad.
(4) Let's all be a bit nicer to one another.
[/b]

Really? I wasn’t aware I said those things

With regard to (2), I'm certainly not Christian, I don't think the torturing of an innocent victim upon a cross appeases a God or removes anyone else’s sin. Frankly I think this sacrificial belief system has a sinister pagan origin ... 'Except ye drinketh the blood and eateth the flesh of the son of man, ye have no eternal life in thee' ...... to me that is cannibalism or possibly even black magic… how it ended up a holy concept is mind boggling….. However skeptics are just mildly bothered by this faith, they seem far more concerned when people have faith they are in psychic contact with dead relatives

With regard to (1) I don't believe God is a man or any individualized being ..... a universal intelligence behind all life seems more realistic to me.... frankly the skeptic movement is a long way short of proving there is no intelligent design or intelligent purpose behind life. ..... even at the very least if it only turns out to mean life is inevitable and creatures evolve into more and more intelligent life forms through chaotic evolution, then I still think that is more logical argument for intelligent design written into life, than the lucky cosmic accident theory popular amongst materialists

Before science assumes God is just mathematics .. first they need to explain the mathematical constants and why they exist ...... otherwise the belief there is no intelligent design behind life (as we know it) becomes a bit of a ‘faith’, don't you think?

No offence to anyone reading here, as long as people live honorably, I don’t really care what people believe in. I’m being slightly mischievous and winding skeptics up I’m sure you will get your revenge

 

[B.S]

Perhaps because the usually harsh skeptics are tolerating ‘faith’ religions while being very hostile to any belief systems claiming evidence (i.e. generally a skeptic's mysterious paranormal ability to know truth from a armchair before investigation because they have ‘faith’ in someone else'ss skeptical opinion)

We are not "Tolerating " faith religions in the way you are suggesting. There is just nothing we can fight against in that area. There is no substance to attack. And skeptics don't have "faith" in other skeptics opinions, we just all have the same opinion, basically.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Perhaps because the usually harsh skeptics are tolerating ‘faith’ religions while being very hostile to any belief systems claiming evidence (i.e. generally a skeptic's mysterious paranormal ability to know truth from a armchair before investigation because they have ‘faith’ in someone else'ss skeptical opinion) On reading such claims of evidence – hostility, on considering the claim - hostility, if ever getting around to examining the claim – more hostility ….it’s almost like some sort of skeptic religion is being defended….. To me that is bizarre

Again, you're just posting stupid spam. You never discuss the paranormal any more, you just spew out this rubbish. Stop it.

Really? I wasn’t aware I said those things

Of course you didn't, you moron. I said I was replying to the original post. Did you not understand that, or are you just taking another excuse to drivel on a subject away from the point? Go away.

 

[Nex]

Perhaps because the usually harsh skeptics are tolerating ‘faith’ religions while being very hostile to any belief systems claiming evidence (i.e. generally a skeptic's mysterious paranormal ability to know truth from a armchair before investigation because they have ‘faith’ in someone else'ss skeptical opinion) On reading such claims of evidence – hostility, on considering the claim - hostility, if ever getting around to examining the claim – more hostility ….it’s almost like some sort of skeptic religion is being defended….. To me that is bizarre

Erm... where was I hostile? Where was anyone hostile aside from Dr.Adequate? (whom I think is just irritated with hearing the same lame arguments over and over again, not necessarily "hostile" but just annoyed)

*Edited to add-- I take that back. Dr. A.'s being a grumpy ol' poop.*

Please don't stereotype all skeptics, as your argument just becaomes an ugly strawman when you do that.

As an aside, I'd love to see how asking for adequate evidence of a claim is "hostile"... if that is what you're referring to.

Really? I wasn’t aware I said those things

No one said you did:

Originally posted by Dr. Adequate
In reply to the original post...

 

[Kopji]

Hi,

Sammy,
Did you ever notice that how the words "religion" and "retarded" go hand in hand? They both begin with the letter "r" and even have the SAME number of letters!

First, think about how this supports what you are trying to say. To me, it sounds a little patronizing, presuming atheists all hold the view that religion is 'retarded'. An additional complexity is that the word 'retarded' is a derogatory epithet to be avoided, even if atheists actually felt that way. Practice conveying ideas in a straightforward and simple manner. Make each word count, like an artist who can render a recognizable face with just a few strokes.

Anyways, yes I do believe in God. But I also believe that each and everyone of us experiences that divine realm differently, which is why I am so vehemently against organized religion of any kind. History has proven time and time again that any attempt at mass marketing a "holy experience" to large audiences only leads to conflict and choas over who has the "right" religion. And if you ask me, that's a pretty lousy, piss poor excuse for starting a war and/or killing innocent people as in the case of September 11th.

A question that comes to mind is: Without organized religion what knowledge of the 'divine' would you have? 'Organized religion' will claim you are living by a kind of 'fading lamp'. You were brought to where you are by organized religion, and yet now you deny its influence on your spiritual growth. Bringing 911 into discussions is like mentioning gun control or abortion in an off handed manner. They are complex issues that warrant deeper discussion, but also carry emotional weight that distracts from the core of what you are trying to say. Saying "911 might not have happened if we could just get along and love each other more like the Bible says" brings more heat than light to bear on the topic.

Each and everyone of us experiences God in our own unique ways.

You are telling Sammy (the atheist) that he experiences God in his own way, but for him it is intelligence and logic? An atheist might say you are trapped within your own arrogant belief system and need to just accept that some people do not need or use the concept of a god in their life.
Anyway, how do you know everyone is unique? Maybe I experience God just like you but deny it out of moral perversity... Or suppose my experience of God says I love you so much I would kill you to to prevent you from making further mistakes?

Point: I can only know me, so arguments based on 'what all of us think' are not very convincing.

Mine is based on the more nobler aspects of the Bible (in particular of the New Testament); so my God is Jesus Christ. Yours is based on logic and reason; so your God is intelligence (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that).

If we are to accept truth or 'nobility' on an irrational basis, how do we choose among the many other irrational perspectives? How do we choose rightly?

The only problem that I have are with the proselytizing types. You see, a fundamentalist born again Christian's experience of God is based on eternal damnation; so thier God is NOT Jesus Christ...but FEAR. That's right...FEAR is their God. You would think that thier acceptance of Christ would be a sufficient enough antidote to their problem of eternal damnation, but NO...that's not enough. And there's no greater textbook definition of fear and insecurity than to have your faith in Christ be ENTIRELY dependent on OTHER people's faith in Christ. This crap has been going on for the past 2,000 years now, and STILL there are literally BILLIONS of people on this Earth who haven't accepted Jesus Christ. So realistically, what are the odds of one person's proselytizing attempts on a city street corner, to completey convert the ENTIRE WORLD by the end of his/her lifetime? Wouldn't it be SO MUCH EASIER for them just to admit defeat, and accept the fact that they are all going to burn in hell anyway?

I, for one, have absolutely NO USE for this childish GARBAGE, and I'm sure you don't either --we have better things to do with our precious time, thank you very much! At least, I'm sure, we could agree on that.

This does not support your earlier statement of belief that graciously allows each of us experience God in our own way. From their perspective, they love you so much they see you are going to hell and are desperately trying to save you. So thus, their efforts are an act of love. You are being inconsistent by rejecting fundamentalists.

Additionally, you reject it as a 'childish notion' but they use the same Bible you do to support their position. This undermines your own claim that the Bible is some kind of moral reference that can be relied upon. To them, their position is based on noble parts of the Bible.

As far as me believing in Jesus Christ in my own unique way, so what if I'm wrong? I'll be honest with you, I probably am. The odds seem to lean that way, since I have yet to meet anyone who believes in Christ in EXACTLY the SAME way that I do. However, there IS but ONE THING that I know to be true and right with all the world, regardless what ANYONE wants to think, believe or worship in...and that my friend is the power of Love.

“Love is patient, love is kind. Love is not envious, boastful, arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, and endures all things” (1 Corinthians 13: 4-7).

And no...that does NOT mean a sexual, romantic kind of love for everyone, and I'm sure as hell not going to ask you to go tree hugging with me (not that I do such kookey nonsense myself).
But lovie in its most practical, everyday, non-religious use of the word. Like saying "thank you" to someone who holds the door open for you. Or letting someone go ahead of you with only 2 items at the supermarket checkout line, while you patiently wait with your entire cart load. Or helping your young son or daughter with a challenging homework assignment. These are the most favorable yet very simple and doable acts of kindness that ANYONE and EVERYONE is capable of REGARDLESS of thier religious beliefs or complete lack thereof. Actions that help put smiles on people's faces, brightening their otherwise dull and dreary days, and ultimately winning you their trust and respect. Again, this is regardless (and I really want to emphasize here REGARDLESS) of what one may think or not think about, what one may know or not know about religion. Practice is ultimately more important than theory, no matter who or what you may think you are, and common sense along with common courtesy and respect should be priority #1 for everyone in ALL social situations. This is all that ANYONE could every possibly ask of anyone.

If I were take a more cynical stance, I might ask how this belief that each person has their own unique God is going to help the world, if it cannot be maintained for even a few paragraphs.

Kindness and compassion were written of as 'treasures' from long before the Bible text was written. You value love, and the Bible supports love, so the Bible is 'true' in what it says about love. What does it say about the rest of the Bible?

It's really not all that complicated of a concept once you think about it. Perhaps with this kind of attitude, we may have probably never even had a September 11th terrorist attack. But then again, I could be wrong, and as a rationally intelligent and fair minded individual, I'm always ready to admit when I am...

The ball is in your court, Sammy. So go ahead...prove me wrong. I'd be VERY interested to see how I am.

Why not be united by simple unbelief?

 

[Ashles]

I’m being slightly mischievous and winding skeptics up

Well there's not a lot of point in addressing your points then.

 

[bluess]

I have it on good authority that the power of love can make one man weep, and make another man sing. According to my sources, it can even change a hawk into a little white dove.

Thank you! I so needed that giggle to get out of the afternoon doldroms.

 

[IXP]

I have it on good authority that the power of love can make one man weep, and make another man sing. According to my sources, it can even change a hawk into a little white dove.

A pair of hawks have been hanging out around my bird-feeders. A couple of days ago one of them ate one of the mourning doves that was feeding there (true story). I guess it needed more love.

IXP

 

[c4ts]

I think those guys worshipping fear over there also believe in the power of love. You should ask them.

 

[tommyz]

Thanks for your help guys!

Thanks to everyone who replied to my post, especially you, Kopji.
That was an OUTSTANDING reply; a very intelligently strong and thorough rebuttal, if I do say so myself. I deeply respect and admire your cognitive and critical thinking abilities; you must be a philosophy professor by trade I take it.

I'll get right back to you in a second, I just want to say a few things in reply to the other posters on this board...

"Intelligence" does not mean the same thing as "God".

So are you trying to say that God is the source of all stupidity in the universe? Uh-oh! Better watch out for that bolt of lightning not to strike down at you!

Seriously, I have no problem with that, even if that's what you really want to believe. Just understand and realize that it all depends on who you're asking. Some religions (including my own personal belief system) actually DO regard Him/Her/It as the ultimate source of all intelligence, while others view Him/Her/It rather differently. On that note, did anyone notice how the Bible makes absolutely NO mention of "intelligence" as a virtue? And Kopji, you wonder why after being "...brought [up] by organized religion, and yet now deny its influence on [my] spiritual growth."??? It's just the absence of intelligence part that partially turned me away to other sources for spiritual growth such as this website.

You can't just believe what you want --- I can't choose to believe in Santa

Sure you can, just as long as you have a clear understanding between what's perverted fantasy and what's
objective/scientifically verifialbe reality, you could believe anything you want. You can believe in Santa Claus all you want, if it makes you feel all "warm and fuzzy" around the holidays, just as long as you accept the fact that he's nothing more than a myth, you're OK. On the other hand, if this belief leads you to irrational behaviors that can become potentially desctructive to yourself and to others around you, THEN you've got a problem.
Such as withdrawling thousands of dollars from your children's college fund to to widen your chimney chute so that Santa Claus could comfortably fit through it. Or leaving a very expensive camcorder and tripod stand out in your front yard overnight to video tape good 'ol Saint Nick arriving...only to find your camera and tripod stand nowhere to be found. Make sense???

Now, back to you, Kopji:

First, think about how this supports what you are trying to say. To me, it sounds a little patronizing, presuming atheists all hold the view that religion is 'retarded'. An additional complexity is that the word 'retarded' is a derogatory epithet to be avoided, even if atheists actually felt that way. Practice conveying ideas in a straightforward and simple manner. Make each word count, like an artist who can render a recognizable face with just a few strokes.

Thanks for the etiquette tip, but understand and realize that I was only being sarcastic here, and was only thinking of the very WORST of the worst religious zealots in mind; I'm sorry that you failed to see the humor in my original statement. On a serious note though, yes, I do see where you're coming from on this. I have a very close personal friend who's also an atheist and certainly doesn't feel that way. It's like saying that just because someone is a vegetarian that he or she is automatically an "anti-fur" propagading animal rights extremist.....when in fact, he or she couldn't care less about such issues and is only choosing such a diet lifestyle mainly for health reasons. So to that extent, my humblest apologies...

A question that comes to mind is: Without organized religion what knowledge of the 'divine' would you have? 'Organized religion' will claim you are living by a kind of 'fading lamp'. You were brought to where you are by organized religion, and yet now you deny its influence on your spiritual growth. Bringing 911 into discussions is like mentioning gun control or abortion in an off handed manner. They are complex issues that warrant deeper discussion, but also carry emotional weight that distracts from the core of what you are trying to say. Saying "911 might not have happened if we could just get along and love each other more like the Bible says" brings more heat than light to bear on the topic.

I already replied to this part of your post a paragraph or two ago. As far as bringing up the tragic events of 9/11 into the picture, I'll have to agree with you...a very touchy and complex issue indeed, so I'll drop it. But where EXACTLY did I say "911 might not have happened if we could just get along and love each other more like the Bible says"??? Like the BIBLE says?! Yes, I did quote 1 Corinthians, but that doesn't mean that that is the definitive "be-all, end-all" guide on how you should treat your fellow human being with dignitiy and respect. Of course, there are MANY other religious and secular books that offer the SAME guidance; what you choose is all up to you.

You are telling Sammy (the atheist) that he experiences God in his own way, but for him it is intelligence and logic? An atheist might say you are trapped within your own arrogant belief system and need to just accept that some people do not need or use the concept of a god in their life.
Anyway, how do you know everyone is unique? Maybe I experience God just like you but deny it out of moral perversity... Or suppose my experience of God says I love you so much I would kill you to to prevent you from making further mistakes?

Well then, what else am I supposed to tell him? That he's a complete blithering idiot for choosing NOT to believe in God?
I'm totally at peace with the fact that there are those who have absolutely no use for the concept of "God" in their lives, thank you very much. I only use that term in it's most flexible and generic way, so to accomodate EVERYONE's perception, even if one perceives God as "No God at all." And how do I know that everyone is unique and not like me? Try throwing a big barbeque party with ONLY vegetarian hot dogs and hamburgers...and see just how many people decide to stay!

"Or suppose my experience of God says I love you so much I would kill you to to prevent you from making further mistakes?"

I sincerely hope that you're being purely hypothetical, because this is the kind of thinking that really freaks me out. This is exactly the kind of mindset that religious terrorists use to justify thier actions, so just do yourself a favor and:

(1). You might want to read Jessica Stern's "Terror in the Name of God: Why Religious Militants Kill" (New York: Harper Collins, 2003. ISBN: 0-06-050532-X) just to see how similar that line of thinking runs along the same lines with those of the religious extremists.

(2). Keep up with your atheist beliefs and stay away from anyone who attempts to proselytize you. That pretty much goes without saying, but this is the kind of thinking that would attract religious extremists to you with them thinking: "This guy/girl will be our next suicide bomber! We need to get him/her in!"

If we are to accept truth or 'nobility' on an irrational basis, how do we choose among the many other irrational perspectives? How do we choose rightly?

Very simply: Choose whatever WORKS for YOU. If it works, use it! If it doesn't, DON'T!

This does not support your earlier statement of belief that graciously allows each of us experience God in our own way. From their perspective, they love you so much they see you are going to hell and are desperately trying to save you. So thus, their efforts are an act of love. You are being inconsistent by rejecting fundamentalists.

A rather perverted perception of the concept of Love, but good point nonetheless. Originally, this was how I first started defending myself against these proselytizing fundamentalist Christian types: By gladly accepting whatever kind of literature that they had to offer and THANKING them for their love. You'd think that this would be enough, but NNNOOO....now, they want to invite you to their Bible Study sessions held every other day of the week, and ask for your personal phone number and email address (keep in mind, you've just met and you don't know this person from a hole in the wall!). And what happens next? They start nagging you all the time like an annoying telemarketer, or incessantly bombard your inbox with "send this prayer to 10 different people, and the lord will answer your prayers" type of chain letter nonsense. If they truly were "confident" in their beliefs, then why would they care what anyone else thinks? Nothing speaks volumes of personal and social insecurity any louder than that.

In all fairness, not all theists/Christians are like this. Yes, I've met some real nutjobs, but I've also met many mature and socially responsible Christians as well. My point is if someone is THAT desperate for friends, they should work on developing their people skills first before even touching upon the more advanced concepts of religion and theology.

Additionally, you reject it as a 'childish notion' but they use the same Bible you do to support their position. This undermines your own claim that the Bible is some kind of moral reference that can be relied upon. To them, their position is based on noble parts of the Bible.

The "same" bible? First off, I'm sure that you're aware of the many different versions that exist (such as the King James and so forth) that often replace certain words and phrases in lieu of other more readable words and phrases. In doing so, some of the meaning and context is changed around.

Secondly, even if there was a single "universal" version, though we may be reading the same menu, that doesn't neccessarily mean that we share the same personal diet. One of my favorite quotes that I like to live by is 1 Corinthians 13: 4-7. "Love is patient, love is kind. Love is not envious, boastful, arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, and endures all things."

As opposed to a religious extremist who justifies his/her senseless acts of violence by quoting the despicable and disturbing words of Deuteronomy 20:16-18:

"...in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them...as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God." [Ugh! No Thanks! NOT my kind of God!]

And both of these opposing quotes are from the SAME version: The New International Version!

Kindness and compassion were written of as 'treasures' from long before the Bible text was written. You value love, and the Bible supports love, so the Bible is 'true' in what it says about love. What does it say about the rest of the Bible?

You're absolutely right. Again, the Bible is not the grand "be-all/end-all" of holy books. And it all depends what quotes you're using, because there are an overwheliming plethora of contradictions and inconsistencies. Such as "You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might." (Deuteronomy 6:5) followed just 8 verses later by "Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God." (Deuteronomy 6:13). So which is it? Do we "Love" or "Fear" God? My choice is rather simple. For more examples, check out www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

Why not be united by simple unbelief?

I really DO want to say something in response to this, but I think I've said enough already; I feel like I'm writing a doctoral thesis!
I will, however, leave you with an alternate suggestion...

Perhaps if people don't have at least a Bachelor's degree in philosophy, they should not be allowed to bring this issue up as a topic of conversation?

Thanks again for the great post, Kopji! Have a Happy New Year!

 

[Dr Adequate]

Re: Thanks for your help guys!

Seriously, I have no problem with that, even if that's what you really want to believe. Just understand and realize that it all depends on who you're asking. Some religions (including my own personal belief system) actually DO regard Him/Her/It as the ultimate source of all intelligence, while others view Him/Her/It rather differently...

You seem to have misread me: I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my first post. Let me quote the bit of your OP which I was objecting to:

Each and everyone of us experiences God in our own unique ways. Mine is based on the more nobler aspects of the Bible (in particular of the New Testament); so my God is Jesus Christ. Yours is based on logic and reason; so your God is intelligence (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that).

Your atheist friend does not make a God out of intelligence. For one thing if he did, since intelligence exists he would necessarily be a theist. We all admire intelligence, I guess, but no-one worships such a cold, abstract quality. Read on...

On that note, did anyone notice how the Bible makes absolutely NO mention of "intelligence" as a virtue?

There's a lot about wisdom... does that mean the same thing?... but I agree that intelligence is not a virtue, in the moral sense, even though all of us would like to possess it, or more of it. Another reason why not to identify it with "God". Compassion, say, or integrity, are virtues. Intelligence is just a bit of good luck, like being the son of a millionaire.

It's just the absence of intelligence part that partially turned me away to other sources for spiritual growth such as this website.

Hey, thanks.

Sure you can, just as long as you have a clear understanding between what's perverted fantasy and what's
objective/scientifically verifialbe reality, you could believe anything you want. You can believe in Santa Claus all you want, if it makes you feel all "warm and fuzzy" around the holidays, just as long as you accept the fact that he's nothing more than a myth, you're OK. On the other hand, if this belief leads you to irrational behaviors that can become potentially desctructive to yourself and to others around you, THEN you've got a problem.
Such as withdrawling thousands of dollars from your children's college fund to to widen your chimney chute so that Santa Claus could comfortably fit through it. Or leaving a very expensive camcorder and tripod stand out in your front yard overnight to video tape good 'ol Saint Nick arriving...only to find your camera and tripod stand nowhere to be found. Make sense???

I barely need to answer that. Your words were "perverted fantasy". If I can tell that it's a "perverted fantasy", then I'm not believing it, am I? If I really did believe it, that would indeed lead me to "irrational behaviours". You say "nothing more than a myth" --- is that your attitude towards Christianity? Then in what sense are you a Christian? Or does the analogy with Santa break down?

I don't know. Maybe the difference between sceptics and believers --- in anything --- is that the believers can actually choose to believe. I can't. But... can you really choose to believe in Santa? Or the Tooth Fairy? Have you tried the experiment? If it succeeded, then yes, you would widen the chimney.

As for that "warm fuzzy feeling" of which you speak, we can suspend disbelief long enough to be frightened at a movie, or cry at the end, or whatever --- it can evoke deep feelings in us, but we don't think it's true, we just feel it's right. The Christian story is a good one, I like it, it moves me deeply, it influences my life very deeply, it's not true.

 

[Oregon_Skeptic]

Hello tommyz,

Not to derail the thread, but I want to comment on your thought that the bible does not make mention of intelligence as a virtue. While I can’t think of any specific passage or line that says intelligence is a good thing for a person to possess, the bible certainly celebrates craftiness (David being smart enough to slay Goliath with a rock and sling), trickery (Jacob steeling Esau’s blessing from Isaac), and even word play (Christ using Petros—Peter—and petra—rock—in Matthew 16:18), all of which could be seen as signs of intelligence.

More to the discussion at hand, then, is your response to Kopji’s criticism regarding how you and others use the bible as “some kind of moral reference that can be relied upon.” Your answer to this seems off the mark or reductive. If you deem passages of the bible noble for you, why can’t anyone else deem other passages noble for them, no matter how disturbing you might deem those passages? How come your reading is any more valid than anyone else’s?

Your statement, “Choose whatever WORKS for YOU. If it works, use it! If it doesn't, DON'T!” makes it seem that you have no problem with anyone reading and using the bible in anyway they wish. There is, of course, real danger in such thinking because it makes all views equal, no matter how morally repugnant or literally dangerous those views are. All of this seems contradictory, though, as clearly you do have a problem with some of the faithful and their views.

If I've misread you I apologize, but resolving this seems necessary if your argument is to have merit.

 

[Kopji]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my post, especially you, Kopji.

Thanks, you're welcome.

That was an OUTSTANDING reply; a very intelligently strong and thorough rebuttal, if I do say so myself. I deeply respect and admire your cognitive and critical thinking abilities; you must be a philosophy professor by trade I take it.

Thank you but I am not an academic. There are several professors and teachers on the forum and I tend to enjoy their posts very much. Actually I am fairly new to the philosophy and 'skeptic' world. 'Unbelief' came not really by my own choice and I have had to find some new ways to live.

I struggle with getting ideas in and out, and am far more at home in images and stories.

Thanks for the etiquette tip, but understand and realize that I was only being sarcastic here, and was only thinking of the very WORST of the worst religious zealots in mind; I'm sorry that you failed to see the humor in my original statement.

Without knowing your writing style better, sarcasm is difficult for me to parse. Sarcasm is difficult for non-native writers, so I try to keep it to a minimum. Your writing seems a little flowery sometimes, which comes across as insincerity. That does not seem the case, so my 'etiquette' advice is simply to make your case and don't worry too much what we feel about it.

my humblest apologies...

None needed.

But where EXACTLY did I say "911 might not have happened if we could just get along and love each other more like the Bible says"???

Perhaps another good example of how hard humor is to decipher when you feel strongly about a subject.
What is clear to us is often not clear to others.

Well then, what else am I supposed to tell him? That he's a complete blithering idiot for choosing NOT to believe in God?

Well, we hear that a lot in various forms. You see, in the Bible says that a fool that says there is no God. That gets everyone off on the wrong foot. Maybe a good strategy is to accept that we are on a journey and don't see the same scenery at the same time. It is not necessary to reinterpret what other people tell you they see, if it is different than what you see. Sorry, that's difficult to explain.

"Or suppose my experience of God says I love you so much I would kill you to to prevent you from making further mistakes?" (kopji)

I sincerely hope that you're being purely hypothetical, because this is the kind of thinking that really freaks me out.

Yes, I was only trying to point out an unattractive conclusion of your philosophy. I think this is what Oregon_skeptic is trying to help you understand too.

This is exactly the kind of mindset that religious terrorists use to justify their actions

Precisely. I could not say that better myself.

Very simply: Choose whatever WORKS for YOU. If it works, use it! If it doesn't, DON'T!

A rather perverted perception of the concept of Love, but good point nonetheless. Originally, this was how I first started defending myself against these proselytizing fundamentalist Christian types...

Seems a matter of degree rather than perversion. If someone was drowning would you stand by and wait for them to ask for help, or would you reach in a hand? I am not saying I agree with them any more than you do, only that it is useful to apply your philosophy to their perspective. A way of 'testing' an idea is by spinning various problems at it to solve.

Idea: They love you and express it in a way that 'works for them'.
Idea: Terrorists feel they are defending their way of life, and so terrorism 'works for them'. These responses seem to bother you but yet do not cause a revision to your philosophy.

On your various Bible passages - Just my opinion, but you seem mid journey here and recognize both affirmations and conflicts with what you actually believe to be true. You do not need any help from me on working through that.

Perhaps if people don't have at least a Bachelor's degree in philosophy, they should not be allowed to bring this issue up as a topic of conversation?

Be oriented by philosophy but not driven by it. It is not until you let go of the kite's tail that the wind catches it and carries it up.

Thanks again for the great post, Kopji! Have a Happy New Year!

Thanks, you too. We drop a giant pinecone here, how hick is that?

 

[Humphreys]

Forrest Gump said it best: "I may not be a very smart man, but at least I know how to love."

He also said that life is like a box of chocolates, because you never know what you're gonna get. However, I've never bought a box of chocolates which didn't tell you exactly which chocolate is in each section. Only a complete idiot would not know which chocolate they were getting from the box, which afterall, is exactly what Forrest Gump was - dumb as a plank.

Anyway, as you were...something about love or whatever.

 

[Nex]

He also said that life is like a box of chocolates, because you never know what you're gonna get. However, I've never bought a box of chocolates which didn't tell you exactly which chocolate is in each section. Only a complete idiot would not know which chocolate they were getting from the box, which afterall, is exactly what Forrest Gump was - dumb as a plank.

Anyway, as you were...something about love or whatever.

Here in the States, there are many types of boxed chocolates that come without a "map." Makes it all guesswork.

 

[Batman Jr.]

It's very well possible to concur with some of the moral prescriptions to be found in the Bible as well as in other religious texts without believing with an uninquiring spirit in their more bizarre teachings. But the reason, tommyz, as to why you can identify with your selected virtues you misapprehend to be because of Jesus, and that is precisely due to your critical appraisal of your chosen holy text. If you can divine from outside knowledge and judgment the truthfulness of certain portions of the Bible, then wouldn't it be sounder to say that the moral precepts that you personally hold dear come more from those outside sources than the Bible itself? In other words, do your ethical dependencies in actuality lie with the Bible, or do they with your conscience, and if the answer is your conscience, why do you need the Bible?

 

[Suezoled]

[derail] screw love. Just give me money. [/derail]

 

[gnome]

He also said that life is like a box of chocolates, because you never know what you're gonna get. However, I've never bought a box of chocolates which didn't tell you exactly which chocolate is in each section. Only a complete idiot would not know which chocolate they were getting from the box, which afterall, is exactly what Forrest Gump was - dumb as a plank.

Anyway, as you were...something about love or whatever.

I believe the "box of chocolates" bit was an invention of the movie, rather than that of the original author. From some material in the second book, you get the idea the author didn't care much for the movie.

But if you read the original, you do get to find out what Forrest had to say about the war in Vietnam. I think that was the most frustrating moment in the movie for me.

To tommyz: experiencing life through knowledge and reason does not make it a God-belief. It may comfort you to call it that, but it amounts to putting a word into someone else's mouth. Calling it God does not make it anything like a God any more than calling the great cosmic mysteries "Jim Morrison" makes them a legendary musician.

 

[tommyz]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to point out the errors in my thinking, and I want to apologize if I came across as a bit naive in my previous posts. That's exactly the reason why I'm here in the first place: To challenge both believers, skeptics and most importantly...myself. Without your help, I wouldn't be able to grow and make personal progress on an intellectual level. So again, thanks folks!

Sorry for the delayed response; I went away for a few days for New Years where there was no internet access. But now that I'm back, allow me to comment...

Not to derail the thread, but I want to comment on your thought that the bible does not make mention of intelligence as a virtue. While I can’t think of any specific passage or line that says intelligence is a good thing for a person to possess, the bible certainly celebrates craftiness (David being smart enough to slay Goliath with a rock and sling), trickery (Jacob steeling Esau’s blessing from Isaac), and even word play (Christ using Petros—Peter—and petra—rock—in Matthew 16:18), all of which could be seen as signs of intelligence.

Yup, exactly. You and Dr. Adequate got me there, so I stand corrected. Of course I understand that when explaining a philosophy one must define one's terms. By "intelligence" I was thinking more along the lines of skepticism. (Hey! Now THERE'S a word that's probably NOT mentioned in the bible, huh?!
) You know...the kind that requires critical thinking skills and not just simply denying everything? Such as the ability to deconstruct arguments into step by step premises to determine the validity and soundness of its structure (the kind of material you would learn in a college level logic course offered through a mathematics or philosophy department). Also the ability to thoroughly question authority; to thoroughly question meaning and truth and otherworldly phenomenon --rather than just blindly accepting things at face value. If anyone reading this would be so kind enough to point out specific passages in the bible that refer to THIS kind of intelligence that I'm talking about, please do. I'd REALLY like to know about them...thanks!

Your statement, “Choose whatever WORKS for YOU. If it works, use it! If it doesn't, DON'T!” makes it seem that you have no problem with anyone reading and using the bible in anyway they wish. There is, of course, real danger in such thinking because it makes all views equal, no matter how morally repugnant or literally dangerous those views are. All of this seems contradictory, though, as clearly you do have a problem with some of the faithful and their views.

Well, on the one hand, I was thinking more along the lines of personal preference. Ideals such as religion and belief (in whatever) sometimes all boil down to a matter of personal preference rather than through science, logic and/or reason. An atheist's "anti-God" attitude can be as equally empowering to him or her just as a theist's "pro-God" attitude can be to the theist individual. And if you were to juxtapose them --and assuming both individuals are tantamount in age, income level, marital status, social status, etc-- and see that they are making worthwhile and meaningful progress in thier lives, and both individuals credits their own respective way of thinking as the source of thier success ---would it really matter who was right? Did thier beliefs not work equally well?

Think of it this way. Which flavor ice cream do you prefer? Chocolate or Vanilla? If both one cup servings offer the SAME calories, the SAME grams of fat and carbohydrates, the SAME amount of sugar and overall the SAME nutrional value ---wouldn't both chocolate and vanilla lovers BOTH gain the SAME weight if that's all they ate all day, and not do any exercise?

On the other hand, I do see where you're coming from. Therefore, if you'll allow me to correct my thinking, do you think it would be safer for me to say:

Choose whatever works for you, PROVIDED that it does NOT infringe on other people's:

(1). Life
(2). Liberty
(3). Pursuit of Happiness?

Idea: Terrorists feel they are defending their way of life, and so terrorism 'works for them'. These responses seem to bother you but yet do not cause a revision to your philosophy.

Again, a matter of personal preference. If you're idea of a richly rewarding and satisfying experience of life is to kill innocent people to make yourself "heard" and feel all "big and important" then that goes directly againts the ideals I had just outlined, now doesn't it? Think of it in terms of the other end of what I like to call the "nutcase continuim" and something more innocent like proselytyzing. If done maturely and respectfully (which I RARELY see), I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's when people become utterly obdurate and myopic in their thinking that causes problems. A born again Christian's idea of "showing thier love for you" by attempting to "save" you from "eternal damnation" may begin with the very BEST of intentions. But through my personal experience, it often leads to very insulting, disrespectful and emotionally heated remarks...harassment, if you will. Though this kind of behavior is in no direct way a physical threat to your life (unlike a terrorist's actions can be) it DOES nonetheless infringe on your personal LIBERTY and PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. In other words, if one is perfectly happy WITHOUT god, then why should they be forced to accept this idea? And against their wills?

And thank you, Kopji! I have made a revision to my philosophy; I hope it's more satisfactory

I barely need to answer that. Your words were "perverted fantasy". If I can tell that it's a "perverted fantasy", then I'm not believing it, am I? If I really did believe it, that would indeed lead me to "irrational behaviours". You say "nothing more than a myth" --- is that your attitude towards Christianity? Then in what sense are you a Christian?

Thanks for pointing that out, Dr. Adequate. I'd like to call myself a skeptical Christian. In other words, do I believe that Jesus existed on this Earth? Yes, I do. But I also accept the possibility that he may never have. Do I attend any church services? Absolutely not; only Roman Catholic masses on Christmas and Easter, but that's it. Do I pray?
Not very often at all. Only to the extent in which to affect a desired resulf completely that beyond my control, if ever at allDo I believe He was born of a virgin? Most likely not. Though it's a very beautiful concept, it's a biological impossibility. Do I believe he performed all the miracles purported in the Bible? Most likely not. At best, the healing of the leppers and the blind man may have very well been but a placebo effect, much in the same way modern day faith healers (such as Benny Hinn) operate today...nothing divinely miraculous about that, but who knows? And walking on water? Changing water to wine? Could've very well have been nothing more than a magic trick; a sleight of hand/optical illusion. I allows like to debate this with the most die hard Christians, but if Jesus was able to that, then why not have food miraculously appear from the sky in such quantities as to feed the entire world? And why just a handful of cured people? Why not ask God (His Father) to cure ALL afflicted people in ALL the world? Do I make it a point to publicly advertise my faith? . Absolutely not. I do wear a cross, but it's always kept under my shirt. And I only offer my views here on this messageboard as a quodlibet to help further our critical thinking skills, NOT to "convert" anyone. Then why do you choose to believe at all???

Look: We are the sum total of the actions and decisions we make. Nothing more, nothing less. So whatever achievements and accomplishments you make are the results of YOUR efforts --not God's. For example, no amount of prayer, bible study, or church services are going to write up a resume for you, and start networking with prospective employers. Only YOU can do that by getting off your fat lazy ass. (and of course, I mean "You" in the third person, NOT you personally --just so you know) It's just that simple.

So you see, I would certainly LOVE to be atheist myself, don't get me wrong. There's only one thing that's stopping me, and that's the certainty of death.

Here are a few questions to think about...again, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on anything, so please...unless you feel absolutely compelled to, you don't have to answer them. Your answers to these questions are strictly YOUR BUSINESS:

What happens to our conscious beings at the moment in which our bodies ultimately expire??? Is there an eternal continuity of our conscioussness that survives death into some other unknown dimension??? Or does the consciousness simply concede the fact that it can no longer exist and be bequethed into eternal oblivion???

The thought of spending eternity as fertilizer for a couple of dandelions and patches of crabgrass growing a few feet above me on my grave...well, it's just a very depressing thought, I'll put it to you that way. Me? Personally I'd like to believe that there's something waiting for me at the end of my journey; an eternal afterlife of somekind. Or who knows? Maybe the hindus have it right? Perhaps I'll be reincarnated as a monkey or whatever in my next lifetime...

(this, by the way, is one of my favorite lines to use against the "are you BORN AGAIN?" question posed by fundamentalist Christians: Yeah, I was a monkey in my past life, and a Christian one too. So therefore, I AM a "born again" Christian, am I not?)

The point is: If only for the sake of my own personal confidence and self esteem, knowing that there's something waiting for me after death --regardless of what anyone else may think or believe in-- do I believe in God and Jesus Christ. This, my friends, is true divine empowerment! Other than that, until someone could prove to me that God can pay my rent for me for the rest of my life (AND show copies of cancelled checks as proof) I really have very little use for whatever He/She/It may be on a practical, day to day basis.

But then again, who knows? Maybe YOU are right all along, and there really is no God. So on that note, which kind of vegetation would you like to become fertilizer for? I guess I better include that in my last will and testament, just in case, huh?

All kidding aside, I'd like to thank everyone for contributing to my post; we got a GREAT conversation going on here. Feel free to reply, and I'll talk to you soon!

Wishing everyone a happy, healthy and prosperous new year...

Tommy Z.

 

[tommyz]

Quick note:

Just noticed that the answers to my own questions were NOT in italics as I had originally intented. And why the frig was my reply to Kopji's comments all in italics?!?!? This was just in case anyone was wondering why there were so may 's in my post...

Can someone PLEASE show me how to do this correctly next time? I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks again!