Call to ban the burqa in Australia

[lionking]

The husband believes he owns his wife; that she is his property.

The husband believes that he cannot let his wife out of the house without covering up her face.

It becomes illegal to cover the face in public.

What is the logical thing for the husband to do?

Maybe the woman would be confined to home, or maybe the husband would realise his medieval beliefs are frowned upon and re-think them.

 

[PogoPedant]

Right, then we would have to consider if the price of some unknown number of women being essentially imprisoned in their own homes is too steep for the gains of banning the burqa. Now what were the gains of banning the burqa again?

We must also consider what the chances are that religious people rethink their believes because society bans certain practices. If banning a practice often makes people think "Oh, the almighty God wants me to do A, but some politician thinks A is bad. The politician is probably right. I'll risk God's wrath".

 

[lionking]

So you are saying that cultural change is not possible? That different cultures which have settled in Australia over the past 200 years continue with their practices ad infinitum? That's absurd.

 

[DC]

it must change from within, not from outside.

 

[PogoPedant]

No, I'm saying that religious people that see themselves as a persecuted minority tend to believe with more fervor, not less. In other words, present carrots for cultural change, not whips.

 

[lionking]

Fair enough. I see recent surveys show a majority of Australian's want to see the burqa banned. Won't happen though.

 

[bigjelmapro]

No, I'm saying that religious people that see themselves as a persecuted minority tend to believe with more fervor, not less. In other words, present carrots for cultural change, not whips.

So security needs are trumped by the feelings of the males of a subset of cultural practices within the Islamic uhmmah? And in order to solve this cultural issue of dressing their women up has to be done via the carrot method, instead of the stick?

What do you propose? I'm assuming there's some sort of incentives...

Personally, I find this strange angle as well since this sort of cultural dress, as seen in various forms in such places as Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, predates its appearance in Western countries. Its not a expression of fanaticism but merely a more recent resurgence (ie Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Tunisia) of strict adherence to an interpretation of sharia law. Stemming this now in the form of a ban is the only way to give a clear indication to this minority that this practice is a security risk. This dress has also been exploited by criminals to evade capture as well, which adds to this danger of allowing this practice to continue....

 

[Darth Rotor]

Hell, I can't see the appeal of seafood, silicone lip injections, or heterosexuality but that doesn't mean I'm ready to forbid anybody from having those things.

Don't care for seafood? FWIW, grilled shark tastes a lot like grilled steak. Might be worth a try.

 

[PogoPedant]

So security needs are trumped by the feelings of the males of a subset of cultural practices within the Islamic uhmmah? And in order to solve this cultural issue of dressing their women up has to be done via the carrot method, instead of the stick?

What do you propose? I'm assuming there's some sort of incentives...

Personally, I find this strange angle as well since this sort of cultural dress, as seen in various forms in such places as Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, predates its appearance in Western countries. Its not a expression of fanaticism but merely a more recent resurgence (ie Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Tunisia) of strict adherence to an interpretation of sharia law. Stemming this now in the form of a ban is the only way to give a clear indication to this minority that this practice is a security risk. This dress has also been exploited by criminals to evade capture as well, which adds to this danger of allowing this practice to continue....

I won't pretend to have the solution to this, but I think it is important to consider the issue from several perspectives. The security-aspect is one I have not considered, so am not able to argue for or against anything there. I have been more interested in the, in my opinion misguided, argument that banning the burqa is doing a favour to the burqa-wearing women.

 

[bigjelmapro]

I won't pretend to have the solution to this, but I think it is important to consider the issue from several perspectives. The security-aspect is one I have not considered, so am not able to argue for or against anything there. I have been more interested in the, in my opinion misguided, argument that banning the burqa is doing a favour to the burqa-wearing women.

I do understand the position which you are arguing and many others on this topic, but this is the issue I'm having with this ban. Its been hijacked by the idea of Western societies somehow imposing their beliefs on the cultural practices of a subset of Muslims when it should be first and foremost be one of security.

Personally, I do feel that this type of dress, not that of the simple head covering (ie hijab), is one of subjugation against women by men who mistrust society no matter where they are. The police force is in place in Western countries to prevent any harm on women in the public by those men who are deemed (either themselves or in general) incapable of preventing themselves from assaulting women if they by chance happen to see their faces. There are some limitations that have to be set on certain and extreme cultural practices, in this case the full body covering. I would assume that Western societies as a whole have moved passed this sort of subjugation and cease to categorize this as an acceptable practice. Its not being insensitive at all.

 

[PogoPedant]

I think we are almost in agreement, bigjelmapro, the argument is in the details.

I believe that the subjugation of women can only end with the women themselves breaking free. This will happen when they participate in society without their husbands. The burqa, and to a lesser degree the hijab, is a way to put up a metaphorical wall between the women and society, making participation more difficult. We do not help these women by banning the metaphore, only to have it replaced by the physical walls of their homes.

 

[MikeMangum]

I'm not a fan of the burka, but I think a complete ban of the burka in public is unwise, for several reasons. First of all, I disagree with it on general personal freedom grounds. People should be able to wear what they want to wear, within reason. Secondly, the reason many of these women wear full face covering in Western countries (at least those who do so voluntarily) is to make a political or social statement. The purpose is to visibly set themselves apart from society. If the goal is to improve integration of this specific subgroup into society, direct attacks on this group from society itself will have the opposite effect.

On the other hand, creating special allowances whereby this group is treated differently than other groups impedes integration. Treat a burka or a veil the exact same way that a ski mask is treated, don't create legislation specifically calling out a burka or veil, and don't create legislation that doesn't directly target the burka but is designed to indirectly target the burka.