Call for Opinions -- Future Responses to the Truth Movement

[HENTAI DOUKYUSEI JP]

Open season!
Fine examples here and here!

 

[KreeL]

This is a pretty enjoyable thread. I didn't vote, because 'I love my government, and agree with what they did because it was a necessary act of genius' wasn't on there.

I've also noticed that proof from the non-truth side seems to be simply saying something isn't true, and then having four or five posters show up to bury the discussion in absurdity. "It's not twoo because we SAY it isn't twoo!" I think you know how that goes. I pointed out an anomaly to mackey. Whether or not it was within an arguable 'margin of error' doesn't excuse the anomaly. Visually, the north tower was indeed a bigger show. If it didn't register larger on the Richter scale, an intelligent person could question the 'margin of error'. Alas, it did however.

As a noob to this site, it is nigh impossible to go and reread all the threads that transpired before my arrival. I did read a few, and the gangbuster non-twoofs showed up in force to deride the poor guy pointing out evidence that should be addressed.

As pointed out above, some scientists try very hard to prove their theories with models. Some, evidently, just sit and chuckle to themselves because they only throw speculation on the fire as fodder for the rabid non-toofers to argue for them.

Such is the way it is.

I happen to love my government. Always have. I even agree with what they did. I already know their conspiracy theory is unprovable, thus I am simply having fun with how they did it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Architect]

I've found it harder and harder to engage with the Truthers over the last six months for a variety of reasons; pressure of work, young family, and - most of all - a complete lack of anything new from them. As others have pointed out, all we're getting is exactly the same recycled (and poorly researched) material. And, of course, some - like Heiwa - have just gone into full-blown 3" rebar at 4" centres mode and passed out of any sensible conversation.

 

[Mashuna]

I pointed out an anomaly to mackey. Whether or not it was within an arguable 'margin of error' doesn't excuse the anomaly.

Do you understand the concept of 'margin of error'?

Sorry, shouldn't encourage derails, I'll stop now.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

I say, if you're going to debate, make it a public spectacle. If these dummies want to spout lies, it's up to debunkers to hold them accountable. What better way to do that than by recording it for the whole world to scrutinize?

Your approach will really depend on your relationship with this "movement" I think. I don't personally know you, Mack-a-roni, but from reading your posts I know you're hella smart and I don't think I've ever seen you lose your cool in a thread. You also weren't duped in anyway by the twoofer stories, so it's not an ego thing for you either. I think guys like you, Gravy, Brainster, and James B (other too) should only come out to debate a couple times a year. Kinda how they only have a couple of good wrestling matches every year. This way they would build more hype, get more views, and consequentially convert more truthers. You could still take the moral high-road and smack down truthers with a clean conscience at the same time.

The nobody truthers (who haven't sold any DVD's yet) should have to debate people who are viciously fighting to repair bruised ego's, like myself.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Whether or not it was within an arguable 'margin of error' doesn't excuse the anomaly.

Wonderful. Here, people, you have wilful ignorance observed in the wild.

As pointed out above, some scientists try very hard to prove their theories with models. Some, evidently, just sit and chuckle to themselves because they only throw speculation on the fire as fodder for the rabid non-toofers to argue for them.

And some truthers claim to be experts and don't even know north from south.

Dave

 

[KreeL]

I thought wilful{sic} had two 'l's.

Some non-toofers need help, but not on directions. Come to think of it, Bazant needs some help building a model.

My model blows up every time. Go figure.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I thought wilful{sic} had two 'l's.

It has. Look at it again and count them. Not only don't you know north from south, but you can't even count to two. This is not looking impressive.

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/english/data/d0083053.html

The fact that people from a different country choose to spell it with three 'l's is no great concern of mine.

Dave

 

[Architect]

The face that people from many different countries choose to spell it with three 'l's is no great concern of mine.

Dave

Just being pernickety

 

[EnJaySee]

I've been lurking in these forums since about Jan this year having come here through google searches. I'd come close to posting in a few other threads before this but others have always said what I wanted to say better and with more professionalism. Being an IT guy I have no background whatsoever in physics, construction, engineering, planes, explosives, mini-nukes, therm*te, voice morphing technology, mass kidnappings and relocations, finance (put options? huh? ) and anything that has anything to do with analysing what happened on 911.

While this has been going on since 2001, I think it should be pointed out that there were a lot of people too young at the time to fully comprehend what happened and who are now just getting old enough to start forming opinions on their own. Hopefully it's done with a lot of independent research, but we know that that isn't always going to happen. That's where places like this site and screwloosechange and the many other debunking sites comes in.

I came here after a friend of mine tried to get me to watch Loose Change (obviously it's still being peddled). I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the video, but I did find myself being swayed by the "Just asking questions". So I took the next logical step and I looked for answers (unfortunately some people seem to take Loose Change at face value). Long story short, I've been swayed by the mountains of evidence against what the Truthers are trying to push and it was all because of what I found here (and in screwloosechange, 911 Myths, gravy's site and other debunking sites). I have to give massive amounts of credit to posters like Mackey, Architect, Gravy, ElHummondus, 911Truth and everyone else who managed to keep their patience when faced against the insanity (for want of a better word) of the so called Truth Movement. I know I would've pulled my hair out long ago and patience is a must in my line of work.

The fact that people are still arguing the CD hypothesis is amazing. I threw out that argument the moment I sat down and tried to figure out just how much explosives (I haven't been moved a single iota in regards to therm*te not to mention mini-nukes) would've been needed and how/when the NWO planted them inside the buildings without the occupants knowing. After realising the impossibility of that task, i don't think there's a point to even attempt to bring up the CD faecal matter the Truthers are trying to push.

All that being said, I voted keep up the good fight. While it's very very very easy to fall into the trap of insulting the stupidity being pushed by the Truth Movement (hell that's what I'd do after a while and some of it is quite amusing), it doesn't really help persuade a 'fence-sitter' as much as patience, cold hard facts and proven maths and physics. Bear in mind that newcomers to this forum searching for the real truth won't straight away know of the history of posts and what's already been said/refuted/debunked. Example, Heiwa's pizza box analogy. Admittedly I've passed his bathroom scale experiment to my friends and we all had a good laugh. One thing that can be said of heiwa in particular is that he doesn't seem to insult the debunkers (except Bazant) and he does remain civil while pushing his flawed physics.

Rambled a bit here, but if you've skipped that massive wall of text and skipped to the end, i say just keep it clean, keep up the great work and fight the good fight.

 

[GStan]

I've been lurking in these forums since about Jan this year having come here through google searches. <snip>

Welcome to the forums NJC! And don't feel shy about joining in. Your admitted lack of expertise in scientific areas still leaves you on the level with some pretty good company here, as long as you maintain your logic and reason.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Welcome to the forums NJC! And don't feel shy about joining in. Your admitted lack of expertise in scientific areas still leaves you on the level with some pretty good company here, as long as you maintain your logic and reason.

Seconded - welcome, EnJaySee. A huge majority of truth movement claims are based on simple logical errors - which can be exposed by simply pointing them out - and on reading meaning into sources which simply isn't there - which can be exposed by a critical reading of the source. Most of the time, it's not scientific expertise that's needed, just plain, simple old critical thinking.

And a bookmark pointing to www.911myths.com, of course.

Dave

 

[Pinch]

I may or may not go along with majority consensus, but I am genuinely curious about what people think. Please share your thoughts.

I know I am often out of the mainstream when it comes to these sorts of questions, but my position is Open Season - with both barrels.

I spent a good deal of my 20's and 30's in and around naval aviation as an F-14 radar intercept officer. Anyone who has spent any time in the fighter aircraft/aircrew community and environment knows that it is not an easy or very forgiving field to be in, either socially or professionally.

We had what we called the School of Public Humiliation, whereby if you showed up for a brief unprepared or had some other requirement/deliverable that was deemed sub-par or not up to our standards, public humiliation was quick and rampant and heavy.

That is how I view these Troothers and their minions. Allowing the victim's families to have at them for an hour or two woul dbe my actual choice, but the School of Public Humiliation will have to do. I know that sort of punishment only works when one has a conscience and a sense of what is right or wrong, which is th eproblem with these Troother idiots, but I still want to afford them the ability to get their idiotic theories and excuses and wild stories out there so more people can see how bat-poop-in-the-attic crazy they are - buried missiles or close in- weapon systems at the Pentagon or C-130's flying right along the hairy-edge of P-56 while on a published departure out of Andrews that doesn't go anywhere *near* P-56 or reading about them accuse someone who watched an aircraft disappear into the Pentagon that they actually "deduced" the disappearance of the aircraft into the Pentagon.

I want the world to know how absolutely off the wall and out of their minds and flat out crazy these people are. Do I wish they'd go away? Of course! But as long as they are here, I want everyone to see their how idiotic they are – hence the School of Public Humiliation.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

I've been lurking in these forums since about Jan this year having come here through google searches. I'd come close to posting in a few other threads before this but others have always said what I wanted to say better and with more professionalism. Being an IT guy I have no background whatsoever in physics, construction, engineering, planes, explosives, mini-nukes, therm*te, voice morphing technology, mass kidnappings and relocations, finance (put options? huh? ) and anything that has anything to do with analysing what happened on 911.

Hey, EnJaySee, welcome! Like GStan said, don't worry about your lack of expertise. I too am only an IT guy, but it's not the background that's as important as the ability to think clearly (not to diminish expertise, though; I have no idea what it'd be like without Mackey, Architect, Dave Rodgers, and others I'm failing to name). Lots of "non experts" here have hit it out of the park participation-wise; Boloboffin - voiceover actor - created the AE911Truth.info site, and is stellar. And Gumboot - film industry professional in New Zealand - created the NORAD response and the general event timeline threads. That info is utterly invaluable. Let's also not forget Gravy's voluminous, encyclopedic site. He's not an engineer or architect either.

It's not who they are; it's what they say. Which is something a couple of truthers in a couple of other current threads seem to ignore.

I came here after a friend of mine tried to get me to watch Loose Change (obviously it's still being peddled). I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the video, but I did find myself being swayed by the "Just asking questions". So I took the next logical step and I looked for answers (unfortunately some people seem to take Loose Change at face value). Long story short, I've been swayed by the mountains of evidence against what the Truthers are trying to push and it was all because of what I found here (and in screwloosechange, 911 Myths, gravy's site and other debunking sites). I have to give massive amounts of credit to posters like Mackey, Architect, Gravy, ElHummondus, 911Truth and everyone else who managed to keep their patience when faced against the insanity (for want of a better word) of the so called Truth Movement. I know I would've pulled my hair out long ago and patience is a must in my line of work.

People still push that? Cripes...

Anyway, thanks for the compliment. It's you guys I usually aim my responses at. The truthers are just object lessons.

The fact that people are still arguing the CD hypothesis is amazing.

Noooooooooo kidding! I'm flat out flabbergasted that so many people continue resurrecting it. I thought for a while there conspiracy fantasy was going to go LIHOP, but I guess that's just not sexy enough.

I threw out that argument the moment I sat down and tried to figure out just how much explosives (I haven't been moved a single iota in regards to therm*te not to mention mini-nukes) would've been needed and how/when the NWO planted them inside the buildings without the occupants knowing. After realising the impossibility of that task, i don't think there's a point to even attempt to bring up the CD faecal matter the Truthers are trying to push.

All that being said, I voted keep up the good fight. While it's very very very easy to fall into the trap of insulting the stupidity being pushed by the Truth Movement (hell that's what I'd do after a while and some of it is quite amusing), it doesn't really help persuade a 'fence-sitter' as much as patience, cold hard facts and proven maths and physics.

That sounds good to me. It's always good to hear the perspective of a former non-participant. And on top of that, this is also a good reminder that there are in fact people new to reading conspiracy fantasy that we can help.

Bear in mind that newcomers to this forum searching for the real truth won't straight away know of the history of posts and what's already been said/refuted/debunked. Example, Heiwa's pizza box analogy. Admittedly I've passed his bathroom scale experiment to my friends and we all had a good laugh. One thing that can be said of heiwa in particular is that he doesn't seem to insult the debunkers (except Bazant) and he does remain civil while pushing his flawed physics.

Rambled a bit here, but if you've skipped that massive wall of text and skipped to the end, i say just keep it clean, keep up the great work and fight the good fight.

Yeah, we should probably try to keep the claws out of our arguments a bit more. Heiwa has never been insulting until very recently. The fact that he's so cheerful about his oblivion doesn't mean that we should allow ourselves to get irritated. It's hard, true - I mean, he's really, seriously oblivious - but like you said, it's best to provide real rebuttals.

Thanks for your input. Feel free to participate in any thread you want to. And, if you want to expand beyond conspiracy fantasy, there are some good threads in other subforums; I'm learning quite a bit about the vaccine/autism "woo" over in Science, Math, Medicine, and Technology. And I'm getting one hell of an exposure to cosmology and physics; Sol Invictus is like a prickly, cryptic, superconcentrated version of R.Mackey over there, and I barely, faintly understand a tenth of what he's saying, but it's teaching me way more than I ever knew before about the subject.

Anyway, enjoy!

 

[KreeL]

Welcome to the forum, EnJaySee. I too was hung up on how much explosives it would take to produce what we all saw. Then I realized that for me to wonder about that meant that explosives DID produce what we all saw, because gravity fails.

Don't worry. I'm sure some military experts lurk these forums, and I'll bet if they could talk they would tell us that we don't have any idea what types of explosive materials would have been available to them.

So don't let that hold you back from having an open mind and thinking for yourself. If you have a toof in your head, you're one up on these guys already.

 

[GStan]

Welcome to the forum, EnJaySee. I too was hung up on how much explosives it would take to produce what we all saw. Then I realized that for me to wonder about that meant that explosives DID produce what we all saw, because gravity fails.

Don't worry. I'm sure some military experts lurk these forums, and I'll bet if they could talk they would tell us that we don't have any idea what types of explosive materials would have been available to them.

So don't let that hold you back from having an open mind and thinking for yourself. If you have a toof in your head, you're one up on these guys already.

And when your theory is full of holes, just open your mind and fill them up with imaginary evidence.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

I voted for open season.

I pray for open season.

When is it gonna happen debunkers?

There are actual debunkers here right?

Don't be modest. Bring it on.

 

[TJM]

I voted for open season.

I pray for open season.

When is it gonna happen debunkers?

There are actual debunkers here right?

Don't be modest. Bring it on.

Masochist much?

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

I voted for open season
attention.
I pray for open season attention.

When is it gonna happen debunkers (you giving me attention, I mean)?

There are actual debunkers here right (I'm not a troll I swear)?

Don't be modest. Bring it on (the attention that is. Did I mention I need it?).

That bout what you were aim'n fer?

 

[gumboot]

I'm not afraid of continuing to swat at the dead mouse purely for entertainment value, but frankly I have found this subforum to be outright boring for quite some time, and seldom post here at all. My interest in 9/11 has dried up as a result, and really there's very little left to learn that I am interested in learning. No doubt the die-hard will continue to slowly piece together the minute details of that day for all eternity, but I have pieced together far more than enough to know that the accepted narrative is more or less completely accurate.

Most of the discussion seems to revolve around engineering type topics now, which I am no good with. None of the truthers seem interested in bringing up NORAD, which is my preferred subject of play.