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California is doomed

We are discussing California. The problems in CA are due to politicians manipulating the market for various reasons--using methods that are anathema to capitalism, including outright theft (if you don't know what I am talking about, I respectfully suggest educating yourself on this topic before further comments). To blame this on capitalism is not rational. Citalism did not build the California Aquiduct, or establish water rights that would inevitably overdraw rivers.

Correct. You are discussing CA, and my first post related to a general comment that was made, and so I addressed it in similar general terms. This is what happens in conversation. It happened to dovetail with points made in other threads, and that is the track I am, or was, on.

Desalination suffers form a serious drawback: it is powe-intensive. And California has a very bad NIMBY problem. They want electricity, but fight like hell to avoid producing it. There were bars I couldn't drink at because I was involved with constructing those renewable power plants everyone thinks are the savior so of humanity. There were cases of slashed tires in the city of Mojave (not mine, because the police put a stop to it pretty quick, but the point was made). Without power you can't get salt out of water, and since CA has all but outlawed anything but renewables and are attacking those involved with building renewables, they can't do it.

And so the need, in principle, for planning that is independent of private interests, on the one hand, and an informed citizenry to guide public projects, which is quite a hard nut to crack by policy initiative without overstepping.

All that said, if someone is slashing your or others' tires over renewable energy programs, with these projects being essential, then they are dopes. And if the CA citizenry cannot get its head around the need for massive water production, I'd say the state better get used to watching tumbleweed instead of TV, fire and more fire, and picking their teeth under a sombrero while waiting out the heat of the day as the main profession.

Perhaps this unwillingness to face the music is based on the knowledge that someday, a good bit of the coast is going bye-bye? Dancing like Nero while Rome burns, in other words.
 
All that said, if someone is slashing your or others' tires over renewable energy programs, with these projects being essential, then they are dopes. And if the CA citizenry cannot get its head around the need for massive water production, I'd say the state better get used to watching tumbleweed instead of TV, fire and more fire, and picking their teeth under a sombrero while waiting out the heat of the day as the main profession.

That makes no sense. You are saying that CA needs to fund trillions in water production programs to support our current level of usage? It'd be orders of magnitude cheaper just to reduce the amount of agriculture and take the hit in farming revenues. Why should the taxpayer fund something that would be a huge net loss to the state (desalination for agriculture)?
 
That makes no sense. You are saying that CA needs to fund trillions in water production programs to support our current level of usage? It'd be orders of magnitude cheaper just to reduce the amount of agriculture and take the hit in farming revenues. Why should the taxpayer fund something that would be a huge net loss to the state (desalination for agriculture)?

I was more in the mode of following up on Dinwar's specific example and experience in that response to him. For a general solution to resource scarcity, conservation and rational use come before new production. I.e.; in the event new production has been decided on, or a form of energy production has been selected, no sense to the actions cited in the example (tire slashing).

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I responded to a general comment a few posts back and am getting dragged into - fairly of course - the OP. Not interested, so I'm bugging out. Been decades since I paid any detailed attention to individual states in the US (or even used English as my primary language, for that matter).
 
I was more in the mode of following up on Dinwar's specific example and experience in that response to him. For a general solution to resource scarcity, conservation and rational use come before new production. I.e.; in the event new production has been decided on, or a form of energy production has been selected, no sense to the actions cited in the example (tire slashing).

***
I responded to a general comment a few posts back and am getting dragged into - fairly of course - the OP. Not interested, so I'm bugging out. Been decades since I paid any detailed attention to individual states in the US (or even used English as my primary language, for that matter).

That does bring up a point- cheaper to buy up farmland for the water rights than to build de-sal plants, and no nimbyness to bother with.

But I'm not sure whether that would be legal, or if those farm water rights are reserved for agricultural use only?
 
That does bring up a point- cheaper to buy up farmland for the water rights than to build de-sal plants, and no nimbyness to bother with.

It's odd to think of NIMBY in a state that builds nuclear power plants on fault lines.

But this is California, so can you inform me of the factors that would spark a NIMBY movement with regard to desalination plants?
 
It's odd to think of NIMBY in a state that builds nuclear power plants on fault lines.

But this is California, so can you inform me of the factors that would spark a NIMBY movement with regard to desalination plants?

A brief read through CEQA would answer this.
 
And the pie chart doesn't even show the biggest slice, ecological water. The water allowed to run out to sea for the sake of some insignificant critter.

Yes. Just one example...

http://www.mantecabulletin.com/archives/122681/
The email stated that National Marine Fisheries Services (NMFS) only expects 29 out-migrating steelhead a year and that their plan was to release 30,000 acre feet by the end of April to help them reach the Delta.


That means there are six steelhead left that the Bureau ordered South San Joaquin Irrigation District and Oakdale Irrigation District to release water this week to help on their journey. The 15,000 acre feet of water based on a statewide per capita use average could supply 174,301 Californians with water for a year to the combined populations of Tracy and Santa Barbara.
My parents live on Lake Tulloch in Copperopolis, CA. The residents fought against the lake being drained for similar reasons, and they won. The lake supplies water to all the residents in the area, as well as a nearby prison (the prison and its political clout probably being the main reason they won).

The water would have been drained to a point below the level where pumps can be used to supply the residents with water. In other words, they would have had no water.

This is what I'm talking about when I say government and the eco people (mainly lawyers lining their pockets) are largely to blame for this situation. The fact that we have not increased our water capacity to any significant degree while our population has doubled in 35 years is indefensible.
 
Okay. What's that.

CEQA is the California Environmental Quality Act. It's the law that governs most of the topics under discussion. For example, it's the law (well, one of them) that requires an Environmental Impact Report/Environmental Impact Statement (or something like that....we always call them "EIR/EISs"), which are documents required to do pretty much any construction in CA. They are typically several thousand pages long, published in several volumes, and take a few hundred thousand to a few million dollars to draft.

Most of the issues are in the law itself (some involve regulatory capture, and some involve implementation, which I find rather absurd at times). I'll leave reading it to you; it's $150/hour for me to read it, and after doing so a few times I really don't like doing it pro bono. I'm not a lawyer; you want me to do the legwork, I'm getting paid. In particular, I recommend exploring the visual impacts section. While we can debate the validity of some of the other sections, that one has always struck me as fundamentally and unavoidably arbitrary. I honestly do not think it can be implemented objectively. I've worked on projects where municipalities have tried to halt construction half-way through using that section as a justification (it was pretty obvious that it was a paper-thin justification, but it's also one of those things where providing details would get me fired, so I can't go into it).

And that's just ONE of the regulations that NIMBY folks can use to fight these things.

And again, that's the ones polite enough to fight you in court, and not commit acts of vandalism in an attempt to frighten the construction crews into leaving.

I would also like to politely suggest that anyone who doesn't know what NEPA or CEQA are should Google them before continuing with this discussion. They are the legal framework for environmental regulations in California, and therefore not knowing them is a pretty critical knowledge gap. There are a host of other laws, ordinances, regulations, and standards (LORS in the EIR/EIS documents) that also need to be considered, but most of them are more how those two main laws are to be applied. The Omnibus Public Land Management Act is another that you should probably be familiar with, in as much as large portions of California are owned or managed by federal entities.

There's also a rather massive report on California's groundwater basins, Bulletin 118 (VERY useful for finding obscure geologic units, so I use it a lot for work). It discusses things like recharge rates, where the recharge area is located (not always where you would expect), and water usage. If you want to talk groundwater in California, you use that report.

Another good reference is the General Plan of pretty much any county or municipality. They all discuss water, including sources of water and how it's used. It would take three lifetimes to sift through them all and produce a coherent and exhaustive report, but if you want to know details they're a good place to look.
 
This is what I'm talking about when I say government and the eco people (mainly lawyers lining their pockets) are largely to blame for this situation.

You'd be surprised. What more frequently happens is some regulator gets an idea, and simply cannot be swayed that they're wrong without spending a few million dollars. Saw it happen a few times, both in environmental compliance and environmental remediation. Sometimes, to be fair, the contractor deserves it; I have NO sympathy for idiots who say "We don't care what the regs say, we're doing it this way". Yeah.....that was a fun series of meetings....When the BLM site rep threatens to shut you down the second time, you should really take notice...
 

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