Bush's Speech on Sacrifice

[CapelDodger]

Not to appear callous but dead soldiers are a sunk cost.
This kind of thinking is what has given us charmers like the Isreali/everybody else mess.

Absolutely. It's not the last 2000, or even the next 2000, that matter, it's the next 1. The next limb or eye. If continuing conflict is justified by past conflict, it cannot end. That's the Paisley position in Northern Ireland, and we all know how forward-looking he is.

 

[CapelDodger]

There is no creative thinking going on, just a stay the course attitude...

Something that's coming across from most points on the political spectrum is a lack of confidence in the current management. On top of that come the domestic political concerns that must be monopolising what talent is available. In the US, domestic concerns will always trump foreign ones. A lot of that's to do with the US being a world of its own.

PNAC-strain neo-cons, for all their claims of being Great 'Murricans, do not understand the US. They go against the grain. And it's showing.

 

[Ed]

PNAC-strain neo-cons, for all their claims of being Great 'Murricans, do not understand the US. They go against the grain. And it's showing.

No, they did at one time, that is how they got to where they are. They have simply become arrogant. Their original empathy has changed into opinions that they arrogantly believe are shared. It is a case of an effect becoming a cause (incorrectly).

 

[Tmy]

Forget about the 2000 dead. What about all the injured? All the Iraqi dead?? How high are those numbers. All those deaths after the "war" part has been long over.

 

[Zep]

The Bush Admin had the "strength" to go in despite the clear warnings of failure. But does the USA have the REAL intestinal fortitude and the pragmatism to pull out despite short-lived petty damnation and a very minor loss of face? I'd say it certainly does...

Meanwhile, as a personal comment, I'm getting visions of Dubya sitting in the Oval Office thinking "Hurry up, Daddy! Fix this mess for me, pleeeeeze!".

 

[Nyarlathotep]

We're bringing democracy to 25 million people who used to live under a brutal dictatorship. That's worth something.

What is it worth to us? We are spending billions of American dollars and sacrificing thousands of American lives. I don't care if 25 million Iraqis are now living in a land of rainbows and puppy dogs, if we are going to expend American resources, I want a requisite return from it for America. And I'm not seeing it.

 

[Magyar]

What is it worth to us? We are spending billions of American dollars and sacrificing thousands of American lives. I don't care if 25 million Iraqis are now living in a land of rainbows and puppy dogs, if we are going to expend American resources, I want a requisite return from it for America. And I'm not seeing it.

Thank you couldn't have said it better myself. PLUS - this whole "bringing democracy" is a load of BS. There are dozens of countries - like the continent of Africa - where a little real intervention would bring freedom and democracy to way larger numbers of people. But there is no profit in it!

As for alternatives. How about this - Lets forget politics for a second and put the POEPLE of Iraq AND the US first. For starters, arrest and charge everyone involved with the BILLIONS of dollars missing that was flown over
in cargo plains and handed out like candy on holloween to every crony.
Charge All the companies involved with non-competative bids for the Billions of tax dollars they are stealing from us and the Iraqies!

Start awarding competative bids to locals where possible and ACTUALLY DO
rebuild the country ASAP!.

Basically waht we have here is, on a large scale, what was going on when Capone ran Chicago. EVERYONE is on the take. You need an Elliot Ness and co. to brutally clean house. This could be done! I think it would fix both our problems and actually gain allies in the Arab world, but there are simply way too many pockets being lines and no one has the power or the balls required to make this happen.

Besides NO ONE is making any real sacrifices other than the poor shmucks (both US and Iraqy) who don't really count anyway and where is the profit in that.

 

[Mephisto]

Hardly a statistical universe, but yesterday I spoke with a Marine friend who says that every Marine he knows in Iraq is really starting to hate Bush.

As I say, it is anecdotal, not a scientific poll or anything; but it is interesting.

I've got several friends and family in the military right now, and they all feel the same way although you'd never think it to speak to a neo-con or by watching the news.

When I was in the military the officers who rightly got the trust and willingness they desired were the ones that went wherever their men went and suffered right along with them. I'm almost certain that had Bush actually gone to Vietnam, he would have suffered one of those mysterious "accidents" that many officers bound for glory also suffered.

 

[Mephisto]

. . . but I do recognize the absolute worst thing we could do is to withdraw early.

I was raised Catholic and I agree, withdrawing early isn't any fun at all. It's also no guarantee that you won't end up supporting a sniveling, spoiled brat. But, I guess as long as the brat has the resources to allow us to keep our SUVs, 2,000 deaths really isn't that many.

 

[Mephisto]

Forget about the 2000 dead. What about all the injured? All the Iraqi dead?? How high are those numbers. All those deaths after the "war" part has been long over.

While I empathize most with our soldiers, I also ALWAYS take into consideration the civilians caught in the middle of our "liberation." They are the ones who likely suffer the most (being between our military and the insurgents) and their casualty count is no doubt far higher than our military's. What would their casualty count be if we stayed another five years? Another Vietnam parallel; we had to destroy the country to save it.

I'm sure after the war is over, the Iraqi people will completely forget all those needless deaths because they will be thanking us and rejoicing in their newfound freedom and Democracy.

 

[CapelDodger]

No, they did at one time, that is how they got to where they are. They have simply become arrogant. Their original empathy has changed into opinions that they arrogantly believe are shared. It is a case of an effect becoming a cause (incorrectly).

I'm not that well-versed in US politics, but it seems to me the PNAC neo-cons have infiltrated the Republican Party and made use of its election-winning machinery to gain power for themselves. I don't see Rove as a PNAC type but as a vote-getter - I could be mistaken. I don't see Rumsfeld as a vote-getter, but he's definitely a PNAC type. Cheney's in it for the money, obviously, for him and his. Bush Minor is an empty suit.

Historically, the US people have been keen on a rhetorical foreign policy but not a practical one. "Send us your poor ..." not "We'll come and fetch them". Being a beacon to the world, which is a pretty passive role. As you say, PNAC-strain neo-cons arrogantly assume their obsessions are common. The awesome election-winning machine that is the Republican Party needs to get rid of them.