Bush says night is day

[DrChinese]

You have me confused with someone else. I don't condone terrorism, and I don't support the Palestinians over the Israelis.

I didn't mean you personally, I meant the "left" in general, which is why I referered to "Dr. Chinese & co". and not just to "Dr. Chinese." I have edited my previous post to reflect this.

By the way, I do not speak for the left. In fact, I do not consider myself part of the left because I am a conservative Texas Democrat. I speak for no one but myself, and cannot meaningfully defend the left.

 

[DrChinese]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush says night is day

1. No, like we did in Germany or Japan, two countries we actually invaded and occupied (something we didn't do in either of the examples you listed).

2. So what do YOU think would happen if we just left now? You keep saying we should do this, but yet you won't say what would happen if we did pull out. What do YOU think extremists who bomb red cross facilities would do if we left? You haven't proposed a solution, you've proposed abandoning the problem completely. You can't even say what you think would happen afterwards if we did just leave now.

1. We didn't get this kind of negative reception in your examples, either, so not too good a parallel. And those countries were a lot bigger. Wonder what would have happened if we had...

2. The U.N. could step in and perform its role. The U.S. has too big an axe to grind.

 

[Tony]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush says night is day

1. We didn't get this kind of negative reception in your examples, either, so not too good a parallel. And those countries were a lot bigger. Wonder what would have happened if we had...

This "Life Magazine" article from the 1940's says otherwise.

The troops returning home are worried. “We’ve lost the peace,” men tell you. “We can’t make it stick.”

A tour of the beaten-up cities of Europe six months after victory is a mighty sobering experience for anyone. Europeans. Friend and foe alike, look you accusingly in the face and tell you how bitterly they are disappointed in you as an American. They cite the evolution of the word “liberation.” Before the Normandy landings it meant to be freed from the tyranny of the Nazis. Now it stands in the minds of the civilians for one thing, looting.

You try to explain to these Europeans that they expected too much. They answer that they had a right to, that after the last was America was the hope of the world. They talk about the Hoover relief, the work of the Quakers, the speeches of Woodrow Wilson. They don’t blame us for the fading of that hope. But they blame us now.

Never has American prestige in Europe been lower. People never tire of telling you of the ignorance and rowdy-ism of American troops, of out misunderstanding of European conditions. They say that the theft and sale of Army supplies by our troops is the basis of their black market. They blame us for the corruption and disorganization of UNRRA. They blame us for the fumbling timidity of our negotiations with the Soviet Union. They tell us that our mechanical de-nazification policy in Germany is producing results opposite to those we planned. “Have you no statesmen in America?” they ask.

 

[Ziggurat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush says night is day

2. The U.N. could step in and perform its role. The U.S. has too big an axe to grind.

Hah! That's laughable. The UN can contribute meaningfully to relief efforts and reconstruction, but they can't provide security to Iraq. Hell, they couldn't even manage their own security effectively. If they can't protect their own people, how the hell can anyone expect them to provide security for Iraq as a whole?

http://www.puk.org/web/htm/news/nws/news031023a.html

"Among the defenses set up by the American military and removed at the United Nations' request, was a five-ton truck that blocked access to the service road that the bomber used to reach the headquarters. Later, the military laid concertina wire across the road, but United Nations officials requested that it be removed, too."

 

[Crossbow]

You have me confused with someone else. I don't condone terrorism, and I don't support the Palestinians over the Israelis.

I didn't mean you personally, I meant the "left" in general, which is why I referered to "Dr. Chinese & co". and not just to "Dr. Chinese." I have edited my previous post to reflect this.

To: Skeptic

Pardon me for jumping in but I sense that you still have some questions on your mind regarding the "desperate" issue in regards to terrorist acts.

By definition, all terrorist acts are the result of desperation. What happens is that the terrorists are fighting a power that has far more resources at its disposal than the they do, therefore the they use tactics that have a low-cost but high degree of public impact. I am sure they would prefer to have billions of dollars at their disposal and the very strong military that would enable to take the battle all the way to the front door of their enemy, but since they do not have those kinds of tools, they have to make do with attacks that keep their enemy so on edge that they are unable to consolidate their gains.

Therefore, the acts of terrorism perpetrated by Hamas terrorists, the Iraqi terrorists, the Order of the Black Hand terrorists, and all of the others are acts of desperation.

What is bothering me, and I expect Dr. Chinese as well, is that Bush is saying that the reasons he gives for the desperation of the Iraqi terrorists are ludicrous (Bush says the terrorists are Saddam Hussein loyalists who hate freedom and love chaos, but just hold steady and that before too long things will much better).

Does this help?

 

[Malachi151]

The US can't pull out of Iraq at this point. We got into a bad situation with poor planning and even poorer motives, but now that we are there we have to stay and see it through.

 

[DrChinese]

The US can't pull out of Iraq at this point. We got into a bad situation with poor planning and even poorer motives, but now that we are there we have to stay and see it through.

Great. What are our new objectives, and what yardsticks will we use to measure them?

According to Bremer, there are more good days in Iraq than bad days. (Sure doesn't look that way from the news.) Is that the new yardstick? Maximize(Good days - bad days) ?

Bush says the increase in attacks shows the plan is working. Is that the yardstick? Maximize(Dead US soldiers + dead civilians) ?

Does Saddam need to be captured before we leave? Does the UN need to resume weapons inspections when we leave? Are we going to decide the fate of the Kurds? How about the role of the Shiites? Is Iraq going to become a theocracy?

Tell me again: why the United States is the best party to make these decisions for the Iraqis? Does the barrel of a gun add IQ points to the man holding the gun?

 

[Ziggurat]

Great. What are our new objectives, and what yardsticks will we use to measure them?

Our objective is to establish a democratic government for Iraq. Progress towards that will not be easy to measure, though there are some goalposts along the way, such as the establishment of an Iraqi police force (already started, though it needs to be expanded) and the drafting of a constitution.

I'm sure you've been having fun trying to interpret Bush's comments in the most negative light possible, and certainly he's just trying to put as good a spin on the situation as he can (why that's cause for blame rather than just ignoring him I can't understand). But these events do not really indicate long-term progress OR failure. But I guess a little patience might be too much to ask.

Tell me again: why the United States is the best party to make these decisions for the Iraqis? Does the barrel of a gun add IQ points to the man holding the gun?

Because we were the ones willing to stick out our necks to get rid of Saddam. Do you really think the UN would do a better job? They screwed up their own security so badly that they got their lead administrator killed, and they had to mostly pull out - imagine the problems that would have caused had they actually been in charge. How about the French? Maybe they can recreate their successful Ivory Coast venture in the middle east.

 

[Ion]

...
Because we were the ones willing to stick out our necks to get rid of Saddam.
...

Did you?

Did you go to fight in Iraq?

When?

Aren't you just sitting in U.S. and bragging about 'liberating' Iraq from Saddam like a redneck armchair hero?

How come O'Rat that you recycle the arguments that you lost in the thread I opened -'The war in Iraq is not about oil, is about 'liberation''-?

For example, the argument that the war in Iraq is not about Saddam but is about U.S.'oil and hegemony as seen by Bush.

 

[Ziggurat]

How come O'Rat that you recycle the arguments that you lost in the thread I opened -'The war in Iraq is not about oil, is about 'liberation''-?

You mistake losing interest in responding to your rants with losing the argument. Aren't you just sitting in San Diego, defending Saddam's regime since you didn't have to live under it? Shall we call that armchair oppression, worm? And I thought we already went through this: don't make claims about me personally when you have absolutely no knowlege of who I am and what my background is.

 

[Ion]

You mistake losing interest in responding to your rants with losing the argument.
...

You mean that you have an invisible argument in that thread that makes me losing the debate?

It's like the invisible WMDs in Iraq:

post that invisible argument and prove that you win and I lose.

...
Aren't you just sitting in San Diego, defending Saddam's regime since you didn't have to live under it?
...

Defending Saddam's regime from Bush?

Sure:

Bush is after oil.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Gee, that's interesting...

Whenever Hamas or Islamic Jihad or some other organization kills jews in israel, the left excuses it by saying that it is, surely, an act of "desperation" and that we should understand the "real reasons" behind it (e.g., it's all the jews' fault.)

But when Bush claims the same is true with the bombings in Iraq--that it is an act of desperation--heaps of abuse are launched at him. Doesn't Bush KNOW such suicide bombings are not act of desperation, but of people hell-bent of killing Americans no matter what?

Well, Dr. Chinese & co., you can't have it both ways... either both Hamas's and these suicide bombings are acts of desperation, or neither are. Which one is it?

The Palestinians are terrorists. The Palestinians are desperate. Therefore, all terrorists are desperate.

Spot the flaw.

 

[DrChinese]

quote from DrChinese:
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Tell me again: why the United States is the best party to make these decisions for the Iraqis? Does the barrel of a gun add IQ points to the man holding the gun?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because we were the ones willing to stick out our necks to get rid of Saddam. Do you really think the UN would do a better job?

So it is a reward for our great victory! Awesome! To the victor go the spoils! $87 billion more and counting... As to doing a better job... when did imposing democracy on other countries become our job? And why do we think we can do it well?

Face it, these questions are all moot because Bush's goal is to assert American hegemony on the world, not do something good for the Iraqis. Iraq is to serve as an example to the rest of the world. Listen - or else! Our way or the highway. Etc etc. The American public wants to do good, but Bush is perverting the truth - some call it spin - so night is day and day is night. Anything that gets Bush more of what he wants is OK. Anything that holds him back is disloyal, unpatriotic, uncooperative, etc.

I say: tell the truth, whatever that truth is. Let's make an informed decision together based on facts we can all agree on.

 

[Cain]

Originally posted by Headscratcher:

Sadly, we must stay, for leaving now is to let, literally, the forces of darkness win -- whether Moslem extremists or the return of the Baath-facist regime.

This is George Bush's legacy.

It's all Clinton's fault.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

So it is a reward for our great victory! Awesome! To the victor go the spoils! $87 billion more and counting...

If this site is to be believed, the US isn't quite there yet. About 6 bil to go.

And if this war was all about the US giving Iraq democracy, where are they going to stop? Lots more countries out there without democracy. Who's going to pay for it all?

 

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by DrChinese
As to doing a better job... when did imposing democracy on other countries become our job? And why do we think we can do it well?

It became our job when we decided we cared about that. Most of the world doesn't give a crap about democracy, in case you haven't noticed. Your point?

Face it, these questions are all moot because Bush's goal is to assert American hegemony on the world, not do something good for the Iraqis. Iraq is to serve as an example to the rest of the world. Listen - or else! Our way or the highway. Etc etc.

Paranoia and conspiracy theories abound.

But yes, it does serve as a warning. It warns dangerous regimes that they are not free to act with impunity. It tells places like North Korea that we are willing to step up to the bat and face them down, by force if necessary. It tells Iran that they better start dealing with the IAEA now because they DON'T want to be dealing with us one-on-one. And it tells dictators across the world that there IS a line that they cannot cross with impunity. Cry all you want to about American hegemony, but frankly those are good things.

 

[Ion]

...
...Lots more countries out there without democracy. Who's going to pay for it all?

Don't even ask:

it's Clinton's fault.

 

[Ion]

...
It warns dangerous regimes that they are not free to act with impunity.
...

You mean the dangerous Bush regime is not "...free to act with impunity."?

I like that.

Keep digging in this direction...

 

[Ion]

It became our job when we decided we cared about that. Most of the world doesn't give a crap about democracy, in case you haven't noticed.
...

Did you tell Bush that you decided to care "...about that."?

Because your Bush, he "...doesn't give a crap about democracy, in case you haven't noticed."

 

[WildCat]

Re: Re: Re: Bush says night is day

And perhaps the Iraqis think they are better off without us! Are we going to install a government like our own? Complete with a puppet favorable to us? After all, we helped the Shah stay in power for years in Iran, something I am sure has not been forgotten by many. And for that matter, we supported Saddam until he strayed.

All we have to do is declare victory and come home. We shoulda done that in Viet Nam, too. Don't we ever learn?

Maybe you should consider what the Iraqis think.

Some excerpts from the poll:

The U.S. was preferred as a model by 37% of Iraqis selecting from those five--more than Syria, Iran and Egypt put together...Younger adults are especially favorable toward the U.S., and Shiites are more admiring than Sunnis. Interestingly, Iraqi Shiites, coreligionists with Iranians, do not admire Iran's Islamist government; the U.S. is six times as popular with them as a model for governance.

Iraqis are optimistic. Seven out of 10 say they expect their country and their personal lives will be better five years from now. On both fronts, 32% say things will become much better.

Only 33% want an Islamic government; a solid 60% say no.

Less than 30% of our sample of Iraqis knew or heard of anyone killed in the spring fighting. Meanwhile, fully half knew some family member, neighbor or friend who had been killed by Iraqi security forces during the years Saddam held power.

Two thirds of those with an opinion urged that the coalition troops should stick around for at least another year.

Dr. Chinese - why are you so adamant that a puppet dictator will be installed? What evidence do you have? I think those days are over, nobody thinks this would be good policy in Iraq or anywhere else.