Bush endorses teaching "intelligent design."

[Luke T.]

I seem to recall Al Gore saying that he felt that creation could be taught in public schools. Just that it didn't belong in science class, but religion class.

When did public schools get a religion class?

Gore and the other candidates running for president have been faced with questions about their position on the teaching of evolution after the Aug. 11 decision by the Kansas Board of Education to wipe out evolution from the statewide science curriculum. The vote is the most decisive victory in recent years for creationists, fundamentalist Christians who believe that God created human beings and animals fully formed, as described in Genesis.

When first asked about the Kansas vote, a Gore spokesman seemed to allow for the possibility of teaching creationist science, an option the Supreme Court has ruled out.

"The vice president favors the teaching of evolution in public schools," Alejandro Cabrera said yesterday in response to a question from a Reuters reporter. "Obviously, that decision should and will be made at the local level, and localities should be free to teach creationism as well."

The vice president, however, declined to criticize the Kansas school board vote, repeating that the decision to teach evolution should be up to local schools.

Linkarooni

This was the second such occasion that Mr. Gore chose to focus attention on religion in one week. Just a few days earlier he revealed his deeply held religious principles at a Salvation Army Center in Atlanta. Gore talked about a "new partnership between government and faith based organizations," and said that he would even give these groups more federal money. Mr. Gore said to the audience, "If you elect me president, the voices of faith based organizations will be integral to the policies set forth in my administration. Faith is the center of my life. I turn to my faith as the bedrock of my approach to any important question in my life".

http://www.catholicvote.org/chairman.php

"The 'politics of community' will be neither government doing everything, nor the churches and charities picking up the slack when government scales back," Gore declared."A politics of community can be strengthened when we are not afraid to make connections between spirituality and politics."

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/church9.htm

 

[Mark]

I disagree. It's not unproven, it's undefined. "Thought" is one of those terms, like consciousness, that Marvin Minsky would call a "suitcase term" because it actually packs a lot of other things... memory, information processing, instinct, desires...

To understand thought you have to open the suitcase and start examining its contents.

If thought doesn't exist then what are they reading here:

'Thoughts read' via brain scans:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4715327.stm

If thoughts can't be done by a computer then what is happening here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/business/yourmoney/07techno.html?
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725115.300

Couldn't consciousness (thought) be defined as the awareness of self?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Why do you fall for hammy's fallacious red herrings? The definition and evidence of thought has nothing to do with the fact that there is no scientific evidence to support intelligent desing. Hammy, even if scientists couldn't measure or define though, that doesn't mean your god exists or that life was created by an intelligent and supernatural being.

To hammy and ian and the rest of the woos, thought and consciousness must be magical because they can't accept the scientific evidence that our minds are a product of biological, material things.

 

[normdoering]

Couldn't consciousness (thought) be defined as the awareness of self?

Umm, that's called "self awareness."

It's apparently not enough to satisfy theological types now because computers are now, in a certain sense, self-aware. They can repair themselves, detect faults and viruses...

 

[Mark]

Umm, that's called "self awareness."

It's apparently not enough to satisfy theological types now because computers are now, in a certain sense, self-aware. They can repair themselves, detect faults and viruses...

I realize that, but it seems to be the only difference between us and the computer types of thought you just described.

 

[normdoering]

I realize that, but it seems to be the only difference between us and the computer types of thought you just described.

Not the only difference. Human beings know all sorts of desires -- simple desires like hunger, more complex desires like sex, and harder to define desires like self-image, egocentrism, love...

We thus know fear and hope. Computers, for now, don't know those things.

 

[President Bush]

I thought we rejected the idea that complex organization requires deliberate central planning, Dick.

Oh, that's only in economics? Never mind.

 

[Mark]

Not the only difference. Human beings know all sorts of desires -- simple desires like hunger, more complex desires like sex, and harder to define desires like self-image, egocentrism, love...

We thus know fear and hope. Computers, for now, don't know those things.

True...but those don't necessarily have to do with thought, either. Well, hope does, I imagine.

 

[normdoering]

True...but those don't necessarily have to do with thought, either. Well, hope does, I imagine.

If intelligence is the ability to solve problems, then without desires, what problems would we have. Thought is a tool to get our desires.

 

[Mark]

If intelligence is the ability to solve problems, then without desires, what problems would we have. Thought is a tool to get our desires.

Hmmm...my dog has desires, but then, I would make the argument that dogs think and are self aware to a certain extent. Still, can I imagine an intelligence that can solve problems without desires? Sure..a computer; which brings us back to self-awareness as the defining characteristic of conscious thought, doesn't it?

If thought is a tool to get our desires, then desires should be separate from thought, shouldn't they? But then, some desires are a result of thought, and some rea clearly instinct without self-awareness.

This is a weird discussion.

 

[normdoering]

Hmmm...my dog has desires, but then, I would make the argument that dogs think and are self aware to a certain extent. Still, can I imagine an intelligence that can solve problems without desires? Sure..a computer; which brings us back to self-awareness as the defining characteristic of conscious thought, doesn't it?

If thought is a tool to get our desires, then desires should be separate from thought, shouldn't they? But then, some desires are a result of thought, and some rea clearly instinct without self-awareness.

This is a weird discussion.

If you thought about it would you want to have sexual desires? Would people want to smoke, over eat, take steriods so they can get knocked around in football games, or get clobbered in the head during boxing matches?

Think of gay people and how they are told they can change their desires.

Think of the seven deadly sins believers know they shouldn't do but can't stop doing.

 

[Mark]

If you thought about it would you want to have sexual desires? Would people want to smoke, over eat, take steriods so they can get knocked around in football games, or get clobbered in the head during boxing matches?

Think of gay people and how they are told they can change their desires.

Think of the seven deadly sins believers know they shouldn't do but can't stop doing.

I confess I am not certain of your point with this one.

But, yes, I do like my sexual desires very much, thank you.

 

[normdoering]

... yes, I do like my sexual desires very much, thank you.

But haven't your sexual desires ever gotten you into trouble you didn't need to get in if you weren't horny at the time?

Having desires is a good thing, but they can make you act crazy and irrational. Make you risk things you wouldn't in a less hungry state of mind risk.

 

[Mark]

But haven't your sexual desires ever gotten you into trouble you didn't need to get in if you weren't horny at the time?

Only on days ending in "y."

Only on days ending in "y."

(Actually, as good Taoist, I agree with you. As a typical horny male, I am not very good at attaining that detachment.)

 

[Dr Adequate]

... mindlessly babble materialist doxology

Doxology (noun) : a liturgical formula in praise of God --- Oxford English Dictionary

 

[Silicon]

Rush Limbaugh called him "Staff Puke" because he was a civil affairs officer. Notably, not to his face.

BTW, Hackett WAS a civil affairs officer. In FALLUJAH. He saw combat. Limbaugh better hope that Hackett never sees him face to face. The fat, drug-addicted, former welfare-recieving draft-dodger deserves a Buzz Aldrin across his multiple chins.

In reference to this story, Paul Hackett has responded on the Ed Shultz radio show.

That's typical for that fatass drug addict to come up with something like that. There's a guy ... I didn't hear this, but actually when I was on drill this weekend, I've got to tell you, he lost a lot of Republican supporters with his comments. Because they were coming up to me, telling me, "I can't believe he said that! Besides that, he called you a soldier. He doesn't know the difference between a soldier and a marine!"

Hear the whole thing here:

http://mydd.com/story/2005/8/8/233333/1849

Hackett slams Rush as a typical "country club republican" and drug addict. Totally out of touch with mainstream Republicans across the country.

They want to attack us. But the fact of the matter is they can attack me, but I punch back just as hard as I get. Ask Rush how come he wasn't taking phone calls for the two days when he was on the attack with me. Ask him why his phone lines were clogged up. That's because he was getting thousands of calls from veterans from this war and other wars who were clogging up his phone lines, giving him an earful.

Rush calls a Marine coming off duties in combat in Fallujah a "staff puke." What a moron. I'd like a lot of soldiers, airmen sailors and marines to show up at his door one day and teach him the meaning of civility.

 

[Mark]

In reference to this story, Paul Hackett has responded on the Ed Shultz radio show.



Hear the whole thing here:

http://mydd.com/story/2005/8/8/233333/1849

Hackett slams Rush as a typical "country club republican" and drug addict. Totally out of touch with mainstream Republicans across the country.



Rush calls a Marine coming off duties in combat in Fallujah a "staff puke." What a moron. I'd like a lot of soldiers, airmen sailors and marines to show up at his door one day and teach him the meaning of civility.

Well, since Limbaugh pretty much only allows himself to interact with sycophantic dittoheads, his perception of reality is probably completely distorted at this point (not to mention all the drugs).

 

[hammegk]

What you believe "materialism" to be is clearly a silly caricature.

Ditto.

Doxology (noun) : a liturgical formula in praise of God --- Oxford English Dictionary

Your understanding of my meaning is exemplary ....

To hammy ....... and the rest of the woos, thought and consciousness must be magical because they can't accept the scientific evidence that our minds are a product of biological, material things.

Dumber comments based on mis-understanding have been expressed here; thank Ed not very often.

 

[Mark]

...and the rest of the woos, thought and consciousness must be magical because they can't accept the scientific evidence that our minds are a product of biological, material things.

Ah, but at a quantum level, what are the material things a result of?

(hint: See Von Neumann's Chain and the teachings of Buddha.)

 

[slingblade]

I can't help but think that if "Intelligent Design" is responsible for the existence of Dubya, then there wasn't much intelligence behind it.