Bush appeases North Korea

Policenaut said:
Did Bush personally negotiate with Kim Jong Il? Was it even bi-lateral talks? Are you smart? The answer is the same for all three questions.
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Did the US engage in talks or not? (hint: yes they did) If so, what is the difference?

ETA: PS: thanks for proving my point about partisan politics

ETA: PSS: thanks also for the ad hom, always nice to see posts with logical fallacies on a skeptics board, it breaks the monotony
 
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richardm said:
North Korea is having a raging civil war :confused:
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Not yet, but probably pretty close to going off the hook.

I think that China is well aware of what's going on, and based on that has influenced the US to remove sanctions this quickly and with this little fuss. I mean, there are huge disconnects in how the report was issued, what it says, and the rapidity of the destruction of the North Korean cooling tower, and "The way things typically proceed". There has been little rhetoric, chest thumping, propaganda, etc. as is usual between the US and NK.

As a side note, that link to the Korean News Agency I posted....the site has been declining in quality over the last few years. They used to have sections and stories, kind of like CNN or any other online news agency. Now, it just has a short list of tiny articles. I think that to lack resources to even spout decent propaganda is telling. My opinion only.

I am by no means an expert on this stuff, so I could be very wrong in my evaluation.
 
richardm said:
North Korea is having a raging civil war :confused:
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My reaction too. I thought Kim had that place nailed down tight. Of course, it is not a well run government but I am unaware of any signs of significant protests much less a civel war. Any links that give evidence of trouble in NK would be appreciated.
 
One of the big differences between NK and Iran which factors in to how to deal with them:

North Korea = Has Nuclear Weapon
Iran = Does not have Nuclear Weapon.

Different factors determine different approaches

Correction: IMO Different factors should determine different approaches

Many critics seem to cry hypocrisy when different approaches are taken. They apparently think all foreign policy must be genericly the exact same regardless of circumstances, etc.
 
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SezMe said:
My reaction too. I thought Kim had that place nailed down tight. Of course, it is not a well run government but I am unaware of any signs of significant protests much less a civel war. Any links that give evidence of trouble in NK would be appreciated.
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I don't have links handy at this time, sorry, but will look for them.

There was a good analysis done by Slate, I think, about 9 months ago. Basically the gist was that Kim is the head, and looked upon as a god (actually, his dad is still leader/deity even though he's dead) but Kim can't run the whole place himself. Those who have responsibilities within the government also have some power and influence, such as leaders within the armed forces. These are the ones, the ones with diverging goals as well as personal desires for power and influence who also have the means to effect unrest.

Also, an article in China Daily http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/ a year and a half ago described construction of a fence along the border with North Korea to "help with immigration control" was most telling in that it showed a section of large barbed wire imposing fence akin to parts of the fenced (rather than walled) old Berlin Wall. The gist of the article was all happy and friendly, but there are issues with many North Koreans trying to escape to China by crossing the river.

And as we all know, conditions for regular people within the country are not only opressive but horrible due to lack of resources and food.

I'll look for the exact stories I refer to above.
 
Today I saw pictures of a reactor being blown up in North Korea. Have we lowered the bar on direct appeasement so much that now a dictator capitulating and blowing up his own crap instead of us doing it is appeasement?

Beam me up Mr. Speaker.
 
corplinx said:
Today I saw pictures of a reactor being blown up in North Korea. Have we lowered the bar on direct appeasement so much that now a dictator capitulating and blowing up his own crap instead of us doing it is appeasement?

Beam me up Mr. Speaker.
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It was a cooling tower how difficult is it to rebuild?
 
Badger said:
There was a good analysis done by Slate, I think, about 9 months ago. Basically the gist was that Kim is the head, and looked upon as a god (actually, his dad is still leader/deity even though he's dead) but Kim can't run the whole place himself. Those who have responsibilities within the government also have some power and influence, such as leaders within the armed forces. These are the ones, the ones with diverging goals as well as personal desires for power and influence who also have the means to effect unrest.

Also, an article in China Daily http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/ a year and a half ago described construction of a fence along the border with North Korea to "help with immigration control" was most telling in that it showed a section of large barbed wire imposing fence akin to parts of the fenced (rather than walled) old Berlin Wall. The gist of the article was all happy and friendly, but there are issues with many North Koreans trying to escape to China by crossing the river.

And as we all know, conditions for regular people within the country are not only opressive but horrible due to lack of resources and food.

I'll look for the exact stories I refer to above.
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The conditions are bad -- but they have always been bad. And they are not nearly at their worst point. The famine and floods of the mid 90's were considerably worse in almost every aspect: KJI had yet to truly consolidate his power after taking over for his father, and parts of the NKPA indeed planned a revolt along with other segments of the population -- a revolt that was discovered and quashed, and the leaders executed.

The fact is, people have been predicting a coming "civil war" or "collapse" for years. If it didn't happen in the mid-90's, I doubt it will happen any time soon. KJI has proven to be very shrewd at maintaining control.

The only chance I see for a major change is after KJI dies: there is still a lot of speculation about which son he will choose as his successor, if he does at all, and there does not appear to be a clear favorite. By contrast, KJI was known to be the favorite as far back as the 70's (two decades before he officially took over) and was placed in several government positions throughout the 70's and 80's to prepare him. That has not happened thus far with any of his sons (although there have been occasional reports). As such, there is definitely a chance of a big change after KJI dies.

Of course, that could be tomorrow or in 25 years.
 
corplinx said:
Today I saw pictures of a reactor being blown up in North Korea. Have we lowered the bar on direct appeasement so much that now a dictator capitulating and blowing up his own crap instead of us doing it is appeasement?

Beam me up Mr. Speaker.
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NK, America's bitch. Blow it up or we'll blow it up for you. And thank us while your doing it.
 
SezMe said:
Dunno but it sure as hell is not something you can hide underground so monitoring for compliance is duck soup.
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Cooling Towers

Viewing the massive cooling tower at Hope Creek, it is easy to understand why many people regard cooling towers as symbolic of nuclear energy. In truth, however, many nuclear facilities do not have cooling towers. Neither of the two light water reactors at the Salem plant, on the same site, have any. Nor are these structures limited to nuclear plants. Many are located at fossil fuel plants. Some are located at chemical plants.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/states/statesnj.html

Maybe another way to cool the water?
 
mr rosewater said:
Maybe another way to cool the water?
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Sure. Build it next to the ocean and use a circulating water system. Cooling towers are expensive so I assume that was the best option. Retrofitting an alternative cooling system, whatever it might be, would also not be something that could be hidden from satellite view so my conclusion regarding monitoring still stands.
 
ARubberChickenWithAPulley said:
The conditions are bad -- but they have always been bad. And they are not nearly at their worst point. The famine and floods of the mid 90's were considerably worse in almost every aspect: KJI had yet to truly consolidate his power after taking over for his father, and parts of the NKPA indeed planned a revolt along with other segments of the population -- a revolt that was discovered and quashed, and the leaders executed.
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This is very interesting. Do you have links to anything regarding the planned revolt by the NKPA?
 
shuize said:
This is very interesting. Do you have links to anything regarding the planned revolt by the NKPA?
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I'll see if I can dig up some more links later. I believe it was the NKPA 6th Army in the North that has been cited as being involved in the coup. Dan Oberdorfer discusses it in his book The Two Koreas, and Global Security has a little blurb on some of the political unrest (executions of some key officials and so forth). Like all things coming from the DPRK, it can be tough to separate fact from fiction. I'd put the coup plots as pretty likely as having occurred, though not 100% proved.

This a 2002 article from Time magazine that mentions them directly.

Northern Exposure
 
corplinx said:
Today I saw pictures of a reactor being blown up in North Korea. Have we lowered the bar on direct appeasement so much that now a dictator capitulating and blowing up his own crap instead of us doing it is appeasement?

Beam me up Mr. Speaker.
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Blowing things up in North Korea can be very counterproductive since it risks China's displeasure and possible intervention. You remind me of Mac Arthur!

BTW

That's politically similar to the Chinese blowing up things in Mexico and expecting the USA to remain neutral.
 
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