Burns/Novick: The Vietnam War

[dudalb]

I don't know anyone first hand either. There's an older brother of a friend but I never met him and that's about it for me.

The first time I went was shortly after it was put up. I was in DC for work and a co-worker and I did a little sightseeing. I remember saying, "Let's go see the Vietnam memorial" as kind of an after thought. It was eerie. I don't know if it's because of the setting but as we came upon it, things got very quiet. There was quite a few people there and most were not saying a word and if they were it was in whispers. I didn't know what to expect but I was deeply affected and overwhelmed. My co-worker didn't say a word to each other until we were well away from the memorial.

I've been back several times and while it still has impact nothing compares to that first time.

There is a uncle I never knew on the wall..one of my fathers brothers was killed in Nam when I was a year old..and my Father has several buddies of his in Nam there.
The show seems to have made an impact...I bought a copy on Amazon today and was told they are out of stock, though a new shipment should be arriving in a week or so. That is unusual.

 

[Giordano]

I have to disagree that Vietnam never followed a Chinese or Soviet model . After the North's victory, Le Duan followed a hard line, Soviet style economic model, with the predictable disasterous results.

We could discuss whether or not Vietnam really was a Soviet style economic model before it loosened into what it is today. But the discussion was really if Ho was a hardline communist and he was quite dead before the end of the war. Le Duan was much more of a ideological hardliner.

 

[Giordano]

I've been to the Vietnam Memorial twice and I found it incredibly moving both times (even though I don't know of a specific individual named on the war). The first time I visited was at night- it was particularly emotionally devastating in the partial lighting where the mirror like qualities of the black stone are even more evident. It is a work of genius- it honors the dead in a deep and extraordinarily thoughtful way without plastering over their sacrifice with empty jingoism. Brilliant.

 

[Spindrift]

We could discuss whether or not Vietnam really was a Soviet style economic model before it loosened into what it is today. But the discussion was really if Ho was a hardline communist and he was quite dead before the end of the war. Le Duan was much more of a ideological hardliner.

I don't think anyone argued that Ho was a hardliner. The argument was whether or not he could be called a communist.

 

[Spindrift]

I've been to the Vietnam Memorial twice and I found it incredibly moving both times (even though I don't know of a specific individual named on the war). The first time I visited was at night- it was particularly emotionally devastating in the partial lighting where the mirror like qualities of the black stone are even more evident. It is a work of genius- it honors the dead in a deep and extraordinarily thoughtful way without plastering over their sacrifice with empty jingoism. Brilliant.

I agree. I've been impressed with a lot of memorials but the Wall is the only one that has moved me to tears and I didn't know anyone named on it.

 

[dudalb]

We could discuss whether or not Vietnam really was a Soviet style economic model before it loosened into what it is today. But the discussion was really if Ho was a hardline communist and he was quite dead before the end of the war. Le Duan was much more of a ideological hardliner.

But you stated:

And despite given his ideology and actual alliances, Vietnam never followed a Soviet or Chinese communist model before or after his death

And under Le Duan,after the North's victory in 1975,Vietnam did indeed follow a hardline Communist economic model, with the usual terrible results.
You said Vietnam NEVER followed a hard line Communist policy. Fact is it did from 1975 to shortly after Duan's death.
I agree that Ho seems not to have been a hardliner when it came to economic policy. but Le Duan was,as his actions post 1975 show.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't think anyone argued that Ho was a hardliner. The argument was whether or not he could be called a communist.

My argument was identifying HCM as a communist first, like that was the main thing one should say about him and the civil war, commies vs the good-guy West.

That framing was just what the US government did to demonize his nationalist movement. It was a secondary issue and should not be put out there like it was the thing the Vietnam war was about.

The war was about a leader wanting to rid his country of the colonial French. The colonialists kept a corrupt government in power and that is who the US chose to back.

IOW, the war was not about stopping communism dominoes. That was a lie.

Now you can say that the US POTUSes at the time were pressured to stand up to the evil commies and were worried about saving political face. But they knew that HCM came to the West first. They chose to ignore the little yellow people and support the financial interests of French and other international corporations.

Underlying it all was the original motive, support Western financial interests. But once you've gone down that road, you have no choice but to make the issue all about demon commies.

'Demon commie' is intended to mislead, make the enemy look bad if you are going to wipe them out in order to look tough on commies for your political benefit.

 

[Spindrift]

My argument was identifying HCM as a communist first, like that was the main thing one should say about him and the civil war, commies vs the good-guy West.

That framing was just what the US government did to demonize his nationalist movement. It was a secondary issue and should not be put out there like it was the thing the Vietnam war was about.

The war was about a leader wanting to rid his country of the colonial French. The colonialists kept a corrupt government in power and that is who the US chose to back.

IOW, the war was not about stopping communism dominoes. That was a lie.

Now you can say that the US POTUSes at the time were pressured to stand up to the evil commies and were worried about saving political face. But they knew that HCM came to the West first. They chose to ignore the little yellow people and support the financial interests of French and other international corporations.

Underlying it all was the original motive, support Western financial interests. But once you've gone down that road, you have no choice but to make the issue all about demon commies.

'Demon commie' is intended to mislead, make the enemy look bad if you are going to wipe them out in order to look tough on commies for your political benefit.

Who here called him a 'Demon commie'?

He was a communist and at the time was demonized as one does of ones enemies when you're at war.