Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[Garrette]

I would tend to agree with that, but then maybe I don't get what "omnibenevolence" means. Is that a canonical term in a sect I am not familiar with?

I'll avoid pulling out the catechism for now, since I'm not trying to parse words, but I use omnibenevolence to go with the other two omnis but as a synonym for "all-loving" which is bandied about the Roman Catholic Church at least with amazing regularity. My experience indicates it is a common descriptor in other christian denominations.

I love my kids. I have occasionally punished them. I realize that is a poor analogue, given my own limitations, but I don't see love and something other than spoiling the object of your affections as inconsistent.

The reason it is a poor analogy is that it is an incomplete analogy given what I am saying.

You took your kids as they came to you and have dealt with them within the limitations of your toolset. You have no responsibility for the quality of the genes in your children. Hence any shortcomings they have and any shortcomings you have in raising them are simply an artefact of the system in which you have been placed.

The christian god has no such escape clause. He could create his children in any manner he chose (omnipotence), and could choose from an infinite set of perfect ones (omniscience). He chose a manner that results in less than perfect children.

So far it is not inconsistent. It becomes so when we add omnibenevolence. If the creator could have created us in a way that gave us all perfect happiness (he could) and in a way that avoided pain (he could) and in a way that still had us knowing about and accepting all his love and wisdome and perfection (he could) then what is the reason for him failing to do so?

If omnibenevolent means treating the human race a la spoiled and pampered children, that hardly fits with having to make a choice.

It doesn't. It means being all loving. A creator who creates us in the way we are created and causes the pain which is caused (or allows us to cause it, if you prefer) is either not omnibenevolent or not omniscient or not omnipotent.

Further, a creator is not all-loving if the love is conditional, which the christian god's love is. All-loving means all-forgiving. It is clear in christianity that multitudes will not receive that final forgiveness.

DR[/quote]

 

[kurious_kathy]

Isn’t it kind of odd that Jesus’ closet friends and followers didn’t even recognize him when he appeared.

There are a couple points of view on this one. My hubby and I both agree it was probably becasue Jesus didn't want them to recognize who he was right away. Once He wanted them to recognize Him in His ressurected body they did.

The other point of view I heard for the first time yesterday by a Calvery Chapel pastor was that Jesus didn't look like himself after the suffering He went through. Imagine how much different you would look after a beating like that.

The only place Jesus’ resurrection is reported is the bible, a rather nebulous and questionable source given the inaccuracies and the time span involved in the reporting.

Jesus showed Himself to thousands of people, that's pretty hard to deny.

No the prophecies have not been fulfilled. Or was there a thousands years of peace and someone forgot to report it?

Well His return is yet to come and once that happens the reign on earth will surely be something. So point taken not all prophecies have taken place yet, but most have.

If either lineage (they’re both different) reported in the bible for Jesus is correct then God directly excluded Jesus from the Davidic lineage.

Well that's a big fat lie from the pit if I ever heard one!

Here’s a challenge, list the messianic prophecies and then put them in context. How many actually turn out to be messianic prophecies and how many are out of context bits that have been twisted.

Search the scripture and your heart and tell me which ones you believe are accurate? It's the work of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth and understanding.

Because Muslims, much like early Christians, are exceedingly dualistic in outlook. Some Christians learned to get along with others. Islam is still learning that lesson.

Islam will learn their lesson once Jesus wipes them out. It is prophecied in Ezekiel that all who come against Israel will be destroyed. Have you read Ezekiel? Pay closer attention to chapters 36 through 39.

More pap. Now how about answering the question.

“What is righteous about forcing someone to do something and then punishing them for doing it?”

Could you give me an example of what you are questioning here?

Did your pastor teach you that Excuse?

No, I'm making a point. I have still much to learn.

So you believe that all Christians should practice abortion. After all, that ensures the baby goes to heaven instead of being born and possibly winding up in hell.

No. I don't know how you could even twist what I said to make this statement. Abortion is murder and I hope people will choose to stop doing that. If it's evil I'm gona call it so. Abortion is evil!

More later.

Ossai [/QUOTE]

 

[Darth Rotor]

So far it is not inconsistent.

It becomes so when we add omnibenevolence. If the creator could have created us in a way that gave us all perfect happiness (he could) and in a way that avoided pain (he could) and in a way that still had us knowing about and accepting all his love and wisdome and perfection (he could) then what is the reason for him failing to do so?

That is the question, isn't it?

The idea that creating a multitude of perfect, and perfectly happy, clones is somehow the embodiment of perfection rather puzzles me. How is that The Answer, unless one is Aldous Huxley?

Anyway, could have, but didn't, got it: the complaint of the unhappy.

Thanks.

DR

 

[Garrette]

Kathy's comments were directed at Ossai, but I'll give it a go, too

Once He wanted them to recognize Him in His ressurected body they did.

So if he wants me to accept him he can appear to me, too?

Imagine how much different you would look after a beating like that.

As the son of god, I imagine I would like however I wanted to look.

Jesus showed Himself to thousands of people, that's pretty hard to deny.

No, but it is definitely hard to prove.

Well His return is yet to come and once that happens the reign on earth will surely be something. So point taken not all prophecies have taken place yet, but most have.

Pleae list them, but do as Ossai has suggested and list them in context. You will find, if you're honest, that the prophecies have not been accurate.

Well that's a big fat lie from the pit if I ever heard one!

You've never heard one.

Search the scripture and your heart and tell me which ones you believe are accurate?

Been there. Done that. None are accurate.

It's the work of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth and understanding.

It's doing a shoddy job of it.

Islam will learn their lesson once Jesus wipes them out.

If they're dead, how will they have learned?

You are describing an abusive father who beats one child then yells at him while hugging another "See? If you'd only do those things that I want you to do but which contradict those other things I want you to do, then I wouldn't have to kick the living c**p out of you!"

It is prophecied in Ezekiel that all who come against Israel will be destroyed. Have you read Ezekiel? Pay closer attention to chapters 36 through 39.

This is where your lack of reading becomes apparent. Ezekiel 36 is about the lord being angry with Israel and talking about how other nations will walk upon it.

 

[Garrette]

That is the question, isn't it?

Yeppers.

The idea that creating a multitude of perfect, and perfectly happy, clones is somehow the embodiment of perfection rather puzzles me.

1. Who said they have to be clones? It could be anything that results in perfect happiness, even something of which I cannot conceive.

2. If they're perfectly happy, what would be wrong with being clones?

How is that The Answer, unless one is Aldous Huxley?

I don't follow. Huxley was not advocating a brave new world, nor was he suggesting that the characters in his book were actually happy.

Anyway, could have, but didn't, got it: the complaint of the unhappy.

Not really. More like the question of those who recognize both imperfection and inconsistency.

Thanks for playing, though.

Thanks.

Any time.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Yeppers.

1. Who said they have to be clones?

To achieve perfect, (consider a cosmic six sigma model, if you like) you'd approach the cloning of a completely optimized specimine, or at least do so asymptotically. Given that the omnipotent doesn't have to worry about the problems of diminishing returns, or economies of scale, perhaps that's not a big issue, but it still approaches uniformity as you approach "perfection."

It could be anything that results in perfect happiness, even something of which I cannot conceive.

I have trouble with it as well, perhaps for different reasons. I find happiness to be tidal.

2. If they're perfectly happy, what would be wrong with being clones?

It would not be life as you and I know it, for starters, so I have no idea how to answer that.

I don't follow. Huxley was not advocating a brave new world, nor was he suggesting that the characters in his book were actually happy.

Unless they'd just had their Soma . . .

Whose happiness is this perfection aimed at achieving? The system (to be the parallel of the authority figure, or God) or the clones/people? This is easily rephrased from a slightly different angle as "whose happiness is imperfection (our current state) aimed at achieving?"

The love piece strikes me as being important, but in the other direction, and omnidirectionally from the created, not the creator.

You can't take love, you can't force love. (You can force fear, movement, and behavior under duress, but things like sincere thanks and love, and a sincere apology only come from within.) When examining this line of thought, one can get the impression that God created a paradox, on purpose. Love is good, but it has to be given freely. So, if you create something, and want it to love you, you know that you can't create a forced love, since you created love. (A portion of which is sacrifice.)

DR

 

[Garrette]

To achieve perfect, (consider a cosmic six sigma model, if you like) you'd approach the cloning of a completely optimized specimine, or at least do so asymptotically. Given that the omnipotent doesn't have to worry about the problems of diminishing returns, or economies of scale, perhaps that's not a big issue, but it still approaches uniformity as you approach "perfection."

As neither of us knows what perfection is (leaving aside the obligatory husbands’ remarks about wives and families), neither of us can say what it would look like, what it must be, or what it might approach. How could an omnipotent god be constrained by any concept, even that of perfection?

Again, we fall back to Euthrypho: God becomes the servant to the concept.

I have trouble with it as well, perhaps for different reasons. I find happiness to be tidal.

But you and I are not perfect.

It would not be life as you and I know it, for starters, so I have no idea how to answer that.

But we do know it would be different. That’s the point.

Whose happiness is this perfection aimed at achieving? The system (to be the parallel of the authority figure, or God) or the clones/people? This is easily rephrased from a slightly different angle as "whose happiness is imperfection (our current state) aimed at achieving?"

Let’s look at both possibilities:


1. God’s. Then the all-loving concept is gone, again.

2. Humanity’s. Then either omnipotence or omniscience is gone.

The love piece strikes me as being important, but in the other direction, and omnidirectionally from the created, not the creator.

So god is not all-loving?

You can't take love, you can't force love.

It is a creation of the creater, just as the serpent and the apple were. Whatever constraints are on it were knowingly placed there.

When examining this line of thought, one can get the impression that God created a paradox, on purpose.

I think it more reasonable to get the impression that either god does not possess the omni traits normally attributed to him or he does not exist. Your suggested impression is simply another form of “God works in mysterious ways” which, even when I was a precocious young ‘un, I recognized as the grandest of cop-outs.

Love is good, but it has to be given freely. So, if you create something, and want it to love you, you know that you can't create a forced love, since you created love. (A portion of which is sacrifice.)

Love could have been created in any fashion the creator desired. He apparently desired a version that ensured a great deal of misery.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Love could have been created in any fashion the creator desired. He apparently desired a version that ensured a great deal of misery.

So it appears. How is that not perfect, if that is how it is designed, other than seen through what appears to be your lens of "it can't be perfect if there is any pain/misery associated with it?"

Conflict, tension, or opposition, seems to me an integral part of the model in question. Why should love be any different?

DR

 

[Garrette]

So it appears. How is that not perfect, if that is how it is designed, other than seen through what appears to be your lens of "it can't be perfect if there is any pain/misery associated with it?"

How can it be seen as perfect other than through what appears to be your lens of "it must be perfect if it exists and the creator is perfect?"

Conflict, tension, or opposition, seems to me an integral part of the model in question.

Are you suggesting that a triply omni creator could not have created a model without them?

Why should love be any different?

The fact that neither love nor other aspects of creation are different is the point. It argues against a triple-omni creator.


I don't write as clearly as some, and my skills in logic and philosophy fall far short of many on this board, but I do not see how I am failing to communicate this point.

 

[kurious_kathy]

So if he wants me to accept him he can appear to me, too?

Yes but first we must believe that He is. It truly is a test a faith

As the son of god, I imagine I would like however I wanted to look.

Well even in heaven we will see those holes in Jesus's body and always be reminded of what He did to save us.

No, but it is definitely hard to prove.

Well I can take it on faith so I don't know why you can't?

Pleae list them, but do as Ossai has suggested and list them in context. You will find, if you're honest, that the prophecies have not been accurate.

I've posted them plenty on other threads.

If they're dead, how will they have learned?

Well they will be wishing from hell that they had listened to Christians that tried to share the truth of Jesus with them when they had the chance to repent and receive the truth of the Gospel.

You are describing an abusive father who beats one child then yells at him while hugging another "See? If you'd only do those things that I want you to do but which contradict those other things I want you to do, then I wouldn't have to kick the living c**p out of you!"

Well if you've been rebellious and evil all your life what do you expect? God gives everyone ample time to turn from their wickedness and sin.

This is where your lack of reading becomes apparent. Ezekiel 36 is about the lord being angry with Israel and talking about how other nations will walk upon it.

If you start from 36 it does help explain and see just how God has promised to turn things around for His glory. The Jews are still God's chosen people. Why else would Satan put evil in so many peoples hearts to hurt the Jews? It truly is a spiritual warfare.

 

[Garrette]

Yes but first we must believe that He is. It truly is a test a faith

It is the same for Allah. Believe first, and then you will know Allah is the True God.

Well even in heaven we will see those holes in Jesus's body and always be reminded of what He did to save us.

We will? How do you know this? And why would I want to see that, especially at breakfast? I hope they have breakfast in heaven.

Well I can take it on faith so I don't know why you can't?

Ask god. He made me this way.

I've posted them plenty on other threads.

And had them explained there, too, about how they aren't prophecies at all, or at least how they are not accurate prophecies.

Well they will be wishing from hell that they had listened to Christians that tried to share the truth of Jesus with them when they had the chance to repent and receive the truth of the Gospel.

You will be wishing from hell that you had listened to me and read the Koran.

Well if you've been rebellious and evil all your life what do you expect?

An admission of fault from the god who made me that way.

God gives everyone ample time to turn from their wickedness and sin.

No. You've been asked the dead-baby question repeatedly.

Turn it around? I hope so. In those chapters of Ezekiel, god is the one who causes all the fighting and pits brother against brother. He tells the other nations he will raise them against Israel so that he will have an excuse to destroy them and show off his power.

So god doesn't choose the Persians or Indians or South Africans but is upset when they don't do what he never asked them to do?

Why else would Satan put evil in so many peoples hearts to hurt the Jews?

Satan in the bible is consistently truthful; god is not.

It truly is a spiritual warfare.

Because you make it so.

 

[kurious_kathy]

It is the same for Allah. Believe first, and then you will know Allah is the True God.

We know the one true God through His Son, Jesus.

We will? How do you know this? And why would I want to see that, especially at breakfast? I hope they have breakfast in heaven.

If you saw the sacrifice He made for you everytime you saw Him you would sing His praises always for saving your eternal soul.

Ask god. He made me this way.

No, God didn't make anyone that way. People choose whether they will believe Him or not. Why is it when people find theirselves on the wrong side of right they just don't switch sides?

I know how to be a fruit inspecter. If a person is full of evil then their deeds are evil. Why is it if you don't convert to Christianity the Christian may argue and say to you we think you are wrong, but the Muslim will kill you for it? Seems pretty obvious to me.

And had them explained there, too, about how they aren't prophecies at all, or at least how they are not accurate prophecies.

Oh yes they are, and very well documented too.

You will be wishing from hell that you had listened to me and read the Koran.

No I'm not ever gona regret not believing or reading the Quran. Anytime I see something with a bit of God word then they mix it with a whole lot of other stuff the truth is distorted. We are cleansed by the true Word of God found only in the Holy Bible. Many muslims have also found this to be true and been converted to Christianity, Why is that? Because the truth is the only thing that can and does set us free. The burden of sin is real and until someone receives Christ it's like a noose around their neck.

An admission of fault from the god who made me that way.

You will not be able to give that excuse on judgemnet day.

No. You've been asked the dead-baby question repeatedly.

What? I have posted my thoughts on why I believe children are automatically saved on other threads as well but most just ignore that as well.

Turn it around? I hope so. In those chapters of Ezekiel, god is the one who causes all the fighting and pits brother against brother. He tells the other nations he will raise them against Israel so that he will have an excuse to destroy them and show off his power.

Well I guess God has a purpose for everything He allows or wills.

So god doesn't choose the Persians or Indians or South Africans but is upset when they don't do what he never asked them to do?

There are many people in those cultures that have come to faith in Christ. Salvation has come to the Jew and the gentiles through Christ.

Satan in the bible is consistently truthful; god is not.

Yah, The truth is Satan is a big, fat, ugly, liar. Don't be deceived, God is not mocked!

Because you make it so.

Nope.

 

[The Atheist]

Yah, The truth is Satan is a big, fat, ugly, liar. Don't be deceived, God is not mocked!

Find one lie of Satan's please.

He is Lord of This Earth and my master and he lieth NOT!

 

[The Atheist]

God: Genesis 2:17...

"...thou shalt not eat of it, for on the day you do, thou shalt surely die"

Satan: Genesis 3:4

"Ye shall surely NOT die"

Who's the liar?

 

[Paulhoff]

Yes but first we must believe that He is. It truly is a test a faith
More magical thinking

Well even in heaven we will see those holes in Jesus's body and always be reminded of what He did to save us.
More magical thinking, where did you read that bull, or do you just think it up like everything else.

Well I can take it on faith so I don't know why you can't?
Did you also that Bush on faith.

Well they will be wishing from hell that they had listened to Christians that tried to share the truth of Jesus with them when they had the chance to repent and receive the truth of the Gospel.
There is you sweet and loving so-called god again, I am glad he is yours and not mine.

Well if you've been rebellious and evil all your life what do you expect? God gives everyone ample time to turn from their wickedness and sin.
Oh, not buying into BS is evil, you are a silly girl.

If you start from 36 it does help explain and see just how God has promised to turn things around for His glory. The Jews are still God's chosen people. Why else would Satan put evil in so many peoples hearts to hurt the Jews? It truly is a spiritual warfare.
There we have more magical thinking, say anything you think is right and wave your magic wand.

Paul

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
"Shoot them before they shoot us"?

Like we say around here; "as long as they're screwing with somebody else, they're leaving me alone."

It's like the Islamic terrorists. They aren't flying airplanes into buildings in Palmer, Alaska.

If y'all are the ones pissing them off, they're your problem, not mine.

Bumper stickers for Palmeroids?

I bet they'd sell in Wasilla.

or religious principles from the book of Cartman?

I have no idea who "Cartman" is.

 

[Huntster]

Thanks, yeah I can't put up with it anymore. While I don't think he is an intentional troll he virtually is one to me. I've put him on ignore.

Really?

Considering that RandFan was responding to me and not you, it would appear a true statement.

I'm hoping so.

If it isn't, I'm gonna request specific performance.

I don’t even need to reference the previous discussion, you’ve just provided a nice little example that you don’t follow the bible here.

"Follow the bible?"

My Bible is static. It's still laying where I left it.

Does yours travel on it's own?

You must deliberately want to play the imbecile.

When nothing of substance can be achieved with interaction with specific people (like you), I might as well have a few kicks by screwing around.

Since I don't "find" morality in the factory repair manual for my Audi, what good is that?

The Audi repair manual is for a specific purpose, assisting in the repair of an Audi. Of what purpose is the bible if the history it reports is incorrect (the figurative and literal bits are so mixed as to be indistinguishable), it contains no moral messages or instructions (as per you) and what few lessons it does contain you don’t bother to follow?

It's history is the best we've got of those eras/events.

Of course, some want to throw it out simply because of it's reference to God, and you're quite welcome to do so.

And I'm quite free to regard your drivel for what it is.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

Why are you so put out when I agree that it is not a manual on morality?

Why do you repeatedly drag this tired game back up?

Could it be because you claim to be a Christian yet you ignore the entire basis of the religion.

No, because that isn't true.

I don't ignore the "entire basis of the religion."

I ignore you and your faulty and hate-filled interpretation of it.

It would be like someone claiming to have a PhD but with them never having attended a university or even primary school.

No, it wouldn't.

I'm a Catholic, and I've been educated in the faith and practiced it for a lifetime.

 

[Huntster]

....But that didn't anser my question which was:

What role does the bible play in your faith?

It is the documented foundation of the Christian faith.

 

[Huntster]

Find one lie of Satan's please.

He is Lord of This Earth and my master and he lieth NOT!

Are you an atheist or a Satanist?

 

[The Atheist]

Are you an atheist or a Satanist?

Yes