Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[Tricky]

I'm curious why it is so hard for an intellectual person to find faith? Perhaps that's what keeps me here?

First of all, lots and lots of intellectuals have faith. I work with a group of scientists and engineers and I'd say that way more than half of them are self-professed Christians. Some are other religions. They keep their faith in one box and their knowledge in another.

Secondly, not every atheist is an intellectual. Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to tell you exactly what an "intellectual" is, but I know that it doesn't mean the same thing as "educated".

Caveats aside, it is true that the more a person learns about how the world works, the less likely they are to rely on faith for explanations. When you know what makes a rainbow, the old explanation of "it is a promise from God" doesn't have as much power to move you. Yet you can still be deeply moved by the beauty of a rainbow. (I have tons of rainbow pictures in my photo album. I love 'em.)

Huntster, a devout Catholic who posts here, has said that knowledge replaces faith. In this, I agree with him (though we don't agree on much else. ) For me, my conversion from Christianity to atheism involved the realization that knowledge does a much better job of revealing truth than faith. So many things that I had "faith" in turned out to be wrong or meaningless. I began to believe that evidence was a better tool for enlightenment than old books of history and myth.

I still have faith in some things. I cannot possibly ask for evidence for every single thing that I accept as true, but for the big things, the important things, I find that faith tells you nothing except what you want to hear or what others want you to believe.

And food for thought....What You Resist, Persist."
Everyone who's done any work on themselves has probably heard that term, but do you get it?

No. I have no idea what you mean. I assume you meant "persists". But I find that statement to be false. I resisted the urge to try tobacco, even though the rest of my family smokes. The urge to try it has not persisted. I can give you lots of other examples. What I find more often is that what you accept persists. Don't you?

Sometimes the very thing a person is resisting is the one thing they need to learn.

And sometimes it is not. Are you resisting atheism? Do you feel a need to learn it? No, Kathy, that statement is silly.

Besides, I know Christianity. I already learned it. I just don't believe it anymore.

 

[Ducky]

I'm curious why it is so hard for an intellectual person to find faith? Perhaps that's what keeps me here?

And food for thought....What You Resist, Persist."
Everyone who's done any work on themselves has probably heard that term, but do you get it? Sometimes the very thing a person is resisting is the one thing they need to learn.

You're making many assumptions about intellectuals and faith.

Also, your "what you resist, persists" attempt to make christianity relevant is asenine. I do not "resist" something I think to be false, I do not "resist" God or Christianity. I do not agree/believe in it and that isn't resistance. That is opinion.

 

[bluess]

Of course, if everyone one stop resisting kk's God, he would then cease, right?

 

[kurious_kathy]

First of all, lots and lots of intellectuals have faith. I work with a group of scientists and engineers and I'd say that way more than half of them are self-professed Christians. Some are other religions. They keep their faith in one box and their knowledge in another.

True there are lots of smart people that have faith in the God. A truely smart person could always admit there is more to be learned from every part of life. But when intellects choose to deny there's a God that's when I have an issue.

Secondly, not every atheist is an intellectual. Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to tell you exactly what an "intellectual" is, but I know that it doesn't mean the same thing as "educated".

Okay, I can understand that. It just seems that an ittellect has a different way of processing information than someone who perhaps isn't that analitical like myself. This doesn't mean I don't have a mind that I know how to use. It just means I process things a bit different than someone who may call themselves an intellect.

Caveats aside, it is true that the more a person learns about how the world works, the less likely they are to rely on faith for explanations. When you know what makes a rainbow, the old explanation of "it is a promise from God" doesn't have as much power to move you. Yet you can still be deeply moved by the beauty of a rainbow. (I have tons of rainbow pictures in my photo album. I love 'em.)

Well if you have a love for nature then perhaps there is more of God in you than you believe?

Huntster, a devout Catholic who posts here, has said that knowledge replaces faith. In this, I agree with him (though we don't agree on much else. ) For me, my conversion from Christianity to atheism involved the realization that knowledge does a much better job of revealing truth than faith. So many things that I had "faith" in turned out to be wrong or meaningless. I began to believe that evidence was a better tool for enlightenment than old books of history and myth.

I still have no idea how anyone with genuine faith could ever have converted to atheism? That just does not make any sense at all to me.

Education is a good thing, as long as it leaves some room for more learning. People who think they know it all are usally the ones who still have much to learn in reguards to other things in life. Part of life is a spiritual journey as well as intellectual learning. One should be open to both.

I still have faith in some things. I cannot possibly ask for evidence for every single thing that I accept as true, but for the big things, the important things, I find that faith tells you nothing except what you want to hear or what others want you to believe.

It takes faith to love, which I myself think is one of the biggies in life. But how can someone know what love is if there's no evidence of it? Think about it, love is more than a feeling, just like faith. Love is an action more than a feeling. I believe there are many of us who are living and demonstrating our faith which atheists have chosen to totally disreguard as having any significance at all. Sorry but I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

No. I have no idea what you mean. I assume you meant "persists". But I find that statement to be false. I resisted the urge to try tobacco, even though the rest of my family smokes. The urge to try it has not persisted. I can give you lots of other examples. What I find more often is that what you accept persists. Don't you?

Counselors can tell you this is a term they use with people that are haveing issues they need to work through. Sometimes the very thing we resist the most is the one thing we need to learn or believe. Just investigate that a bit.

And sometimes it is not. Are you resisting atheism? Do you feel a need to learn it? No, Kathy, that statement is silly.

Besides, I know Christianity. I already learned it. I just don't believe it anymore.

Well I'm gona pray that God turns you back around to find the truth in Christ. Everything outside of Christ leads to death. What good is knowlege without faith?

 

[The Atheist]

Why is everyone double posting?

 

[The Atheist]

Why is everyone double posting?

Grrrrrr, why does it take so long to double post?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Well I'm gona pray that God turns you back around to find the truth in Christ. Everything outside of Christ leads to death. What good is knowlege without faith?

Thanks Kathy, thanks to you I now know that standing in front of a loaded Ma Deuce (M2 .50 cal machine gun) when the trigger is pulled is "outside of Christ." I would not want to make such a mistake this Sunday, ya know, and think that acting as a target for a gunner was "the Christian thing to do." WWJD? He'd not stand in front of the gun.

The thread title was "bumper sticker," but it was not a directive to couch every argument, every discussion point in the thread as a collection of bumper sticker style throwaway lines. It's what you do, it's all you do, rather like The Terminator.

I may start calling you the Kathinator. Or not, I am undecided.

The idea of this thread, in which we have all digressed, was to suggest funny bumper sticker lines, or to report funny ones you have seen.

So, here's one for you:

"The wages of sin are:
Whatever the hooker charges you."

DR

 

[Paulhoff]

Freedom is, getting the Jesus monkey off your back.

Paul

 

[kurious_kathy]

I may start calling you the Kathinator. Or not, I am undecided.

The idea of this thread, in which we have all digressed, was to suggest funny bumper sticker lines, or to report funny ones you have seen.
DR

Okay I know I tend to ramble a bit. But I do enjoy having discussions with people when the oportunity arises.

It's funny you came up with that Kathinator, I have a friend named Holly who we call the hollinator. I got a chuckle out of that.

Back to the Bumper sticker, I like the one that says..."HIGHER POWERED'

 

[The Atheist]

I'm curious why it is so hard for an intellectual person to find faith? Perhaps that's what keeps me here?

And food for thought....What You Resist, Persist."
Everyone who's done any work on themselves has probably heard that term, but do you get it? Sometimes the very thing a person is resisting is the one thing they need to learn.

(Bolding mine)

Oh weally, wabbit?

Maybe, in fact, that is the truth behind why you're here. You resist atheism with every ounce of your faith, yet deep, deep down, you suspect that we're actually dead right.

Let me tell you a couple of things, Kathy. You seem like a very nice person who is letting herself be tainted by the strange religion you practice. Go outside on a clear night and have a look at the stars, galaxies and bits we can see from Earth. Don't you think your omniptent, omnipresent god could have used his resources a bit better than to build an entire universe for a race of medium-sized mammals?

My guess is that you're scared of death - an extremely common christian trait, and entirely understandable - I am too! What you need to realise is that while death is the end, at least you've had a start, so maximise your life now and stop wasting it on your knees, praying to a god.

You were born into comfort and security, not because your parents pretend obeisance to some god-thingy, but because it happened. No more, no less. Imagine all the starving, helpless people in the world who pray with all their hearts for their children to not starve. When those kids do starve to death, they pray for their children's "souls" and you console yourself that it's all ok because your god will kiss and make it better when you're all together in heaven. To accept that vision of the universe is to remove yourself from the human race. It's a form of apathy which has ruled the world for millennia and has cost countless lives, all in pursuit of an unachievable Utopia. Embracing christian religion is no less dishonest than a Mullah preaching the "72 virgins", just a different outcome.

 

[Paulhoff]

..."HIGHER POWERED'

"Easily Fooled"

Paul

 

[Paulhoff]

Mullah preaching the "72 virgins", just a different outcome.

Yea, they are over 80 and will stay that way.

Paul

 

[The Atheist]

The idea of this thread, in which we have all digressed, was to suggest funny bumper sticker lines, or to report funny ones you have seen.

So, here's one for you:

"The wages of sin are:
Whatever the hooker charges you."

DR

I can almost get on bumper stickers - licence plates.

I wanted to get an atheist or anti-theist licence plate. Six-letter max.

While such gems as 4JESUS, LUVGOD, DIED4U, etc., ad nauseum, are freely available, the following are NOT:

NO GOD, 0 GOD (0 with a \ through it), or any sentiment which suggests that there is, in fact, no god.

I went with A3IST. Obviously ATHEIST doesn't fit, so I've gone with a phonetic "ATHREEIST" Corny, but the best I could do.

 

[The Atheist]

Yea, they are over 80 and will stay that way.

Paul

 

[Tricky]

True there are lots of smart people that have faith in the God. A truely smart person could always admit there is more to be learned from every part of life.

All truly smart people I have known have said there is always more to learn. I have heard some truly non-smart people make claims like "everything you need to know is in the Bible", which says to me that they are no longer open to learning.

But when intellects choose to deny there's a God that's when I have an issue.

Why should you have an issue? It is none of your business what they believe. Their denial of God should have absolutely no effect on you.

Okay, I can understand that. It just seems that an ittellect has a different way of processing information than someone who perhaps isn't that analitical like myself. This doesn't mean I don't have a mind that I know how to use. It just means I process things a bit different than someone who may call themselves an intellect.

I'm not sure it means that at all. I know you have a mind, but I'm not certain that you are putting it to full use. You seem to have decided that certain things are true and there is no longer any need to question your beliefs. That doesn't sound like "full mind usage" to me. Sorry.

Well if you have a love for nature then perhaps there is more of God in you than you believe?

Or more likely, love of nature is unrelated to love of God.

I still have no idea how anyone with genuine faith could ever have converted to atheism? That just does not make any sense at all to me.

I know it doesn't. You haven't opened your heart or your mind to the possibility. But I assure you, it does happen. My conversion was somewhat less dramatic than that of some people here, like Slingblade.

In contrast, I do know why people can believe in God. I simply don't agree with them, which is okay.

Education is a good thing, as long as it leaves some room for more learning. People who think they know it all are usally the ones who still have much to learn in reguards to other things in life. Part of life is a spiritual journey as well as intellectual learning. One should be open to both.

Faith is not learning. Faith is accepting. Education is learning. You can even be educated about religion without believing in that religion. For example, you probably learned a bit about the Greek and Roman gods when you were in school.

As for spiritual journeys, I have no evidence of this thing you call a spirit. To me it seems that what people call "spirit" is really the mind and personality of a person. Every single piece of evidence I have ever gathered says that all that stuff disappears when the person dies. Religion is nothing more than an attempt to deny that.

It takes faith to love, which I myself think is one of the biggies in life. But how can someone know what love is if there's no evidence of it? Think about it, love is more than a feeling, just like faith. Love is an action more than a feeling.

"Love" is a very nebulous term. It encompasses all sorts of things. But I assure you that we atheists are quite capable of love. I love my wife with both passion and tenderness. I love nature and made it my life's profession. I love a good steak, cooked medium rare. I don't love all of the same things you love. You don't love all of the same things I love. Aren't you glad that there are so many different things that people love?

I believe there are many of us who are living and demonstrating our faith which atheists have chosen to totally disreguard as having any significance at all.

I cannot speak for all atheists, but I assure you I do not regard your faith as having "no significance at all." Christianity is a ubiquitous part of American society. It pervades almost everything here. Your faith and your church are quite significant to me. I simply don't believe them myself. Still, I want people to be happy, and if your belief makes you happy, then I am glad for you. I don't think you should assume though that what makes you happy would make me happy. I'm quite sure that atheism would not make you happy, so I'm not going to recommend it for you. All I ask is that you understand me. You don't have to agree with me.

Counselors can tell you this is a term they use with people that are haveing issues they need to work through. Sometimes the very thing we resist the most is the one thing we need to learn or believe. Just investigate that a bit.

Oh, I'm quite aware of the concept. But it is only true sometimes, not always. In 12-step programs, the first step is always to admit you have a problem. But again, you resist atheism. That doesn't mean it is the thing you need to learn or believe. Frankly, I think it would help if you understood atheists better, but I don't think you are the kind of person who could comfortably live without magical beliefs. It would not make you happy. But we are all different. I'm extremely happy being an atheist.

Well I'm gona pray that God turns you back around to find the truth in Christ.

I'm not going to wish for any such conversion for you because I respect your beliefs and your wish to keep them. I hope that you will respect mine. I assure you, I am very happy. It is not for you to try to change that.

Everything outside of Christ leads to death.

Life leads to death, regardless of what you believe. I have never seen a single thing that indicates otherwise.

What good is knowlege without faith?

More good than faith without knowledge. Much more, IMO.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Tricky, I like you. I'm not gona argue about why I believe you are wrong for walking away from Christianity. I just think it's a mistake on your part. But I don't dislike you so don't take me the wrong way. I just disagree with your worldview. It took me a long time to come to a place where I choose to take a Biblical worldview perspective. I have chosen whom I will serve.

I'm gona dedicate this ole song to you that I think was originally done by the Doobie Brothers...Jesus Is Just Alright With Me" a Contemporary Christian band remade it and it's awesome. Ever heard of DC Talk?

 

[Tanstaafl]

I passed a car recently with a license plate that said something like IMSAVD.

I was still laughing as I passed by, when the driver looked over at me, and I think she could tell I was laughing at her license plate, as she looked very displeased.

Somehow I always find these visual sound bites very amusing.

 

[Tricky]

Tricky, I like you. I'm not gona argue about why I believe you are wrong for walking away from Christianity. I just think it's a mistake on your part. But I don't dislike you so don't take me the wrong way. I just disagree with your worldview. It took me a long time to come to a place where I choose to take a Biblical worldview perspective. I have chosen whom I will serve.

I'm glad you like me. I think you are a good person too. But just as you think about me, I disagree with your worldview. And I don't like to think of you or anyone as a servant. It is demeaning.

I'm gona dedicate this ole song to you that I think was originally done by the Doobie Brothers...Jesus Is Just Alright With Me" a Contemporary Christian band remade it and it's awesome. Ever heard of DC Talk?

Ya know, I remember that song back from when I was a fan of the Doobies, and I always thought it was a little out of character for them. I also thought, "Why are they damning Jesus with faint praise?" I mean, what Christian describes God Jr. as being "just all right"? Seems a little weak, don't you think?

But thank you for the dedication. I will return the dedication with a song from the same era. "Alone Again, Naturally" by Gilbert O. Sullivan.

 

[Paulhoff]

No god and free at last!

Paul

 

[Roadtoad]

Kathy, let me try and explain matters to you this way. Maybe you'll get it this time.

I watched my biological father beat my mother senseless when I was three. According to you, this is Jesus telling me, "I love you. Therefore, I'll make your mother suffer horribly, enduring cigarette burns on her body, so that this will draw you closer to me."

I was mentally abused for the better part of my life by my mother, being told I was "weird," a "disgrace," an "embarassment," but this was merely Jesus telling me, "I love you. Therefore, I'm going to make sure you are belittled on a daily basis, dragged to your lowest ebb, driven to the edge of suicide, so that this will draw you closer to me."

I was molested by my scoutmaster. I told my parents and was told that I was disgracing my family, because I was saying something horrible about a friend of my fathers. This was merely Jesus saying, "I love you. Therefore, I will subject you and other boys to sexual abuse by a man who is respected in your community, (though he doesn't deserve it), so that this will draw you closer to me."

And so it goes, doesn't it, Kathy? "I love you. Therefore, you'll suffer a loveless first marriage, your older two sons will have to get along without you, and you'll be subjected to the worst that the Family Court system in California can throw at you so that this will draw you closer to me."

"I love you. Therefore, your wife will endure poor health and will be in pain for the better part of her later life so that this will draw you closer to me."

Do you have any idea how cruel this makes God sound? You make God sound like an abusive partner in a relationship, the one who beats the other, declaring, "I wouldn't batter you like this if you didn't force me to do this. I love you, therefore, I have to injure you so badly that you won't dare to leave me."

This is not a God I can love. Because this is not love. It is abuse. And after being physically, sexually, and emotionally abused throughout my childhood, I know what abuse is. And I am not taking it anymore.

I gave up on the Church. Their "god" was hurting me, and I refused to accept it anymore. And at this stage of my life, I question whether He even exists, because if you have that much power, that much authority, why would you need to break and crush those beneath you? Those are not the actions of a God. Those are the actions of an abuser. I decline the abuse.