Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[ranson]

Many thanks, Huntster, for a direct answer on your part. However, as your philosophy does differ somewhat from the one KK has presented, I would like to hear her answer on the matter, as well.

 

[Paulhoff]

we lose our faith to knowledge

Sounds like 1984 to me.

Thru knowledge, I know the sun will come up tomorrow, that gravity will always be, that tomorrow will come with or without me. Give me knowledge, with it I can change the world for the better, with faith I can only hope.

Paul

 

[zizzybaluba]

Children are capable of great faith. As we grow and are infected with the diseases of doubt, pride, independence, etc., we lose our faith to knowledge.

This is true, but I don't think its a strong argument that we are, in fact, born with faith in a god.
Children have faith in a great many things without adequate evidence. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy spring to mind. I don't think you are going to argue that children are not born with with a belief in Santa Claus-- they come to believe in Santa Claus after being told of his existence. How is that different from children coming to believe in a god after being told of his existence?

 

[Ossai]

ceo_esq

That passage from the Catechism indicates that those who are consciously ignorant of God but who sincerely try to do good inasmuch as their consciences permit them to discern it can attain heaven - even if they never actually overcome their formal ignorance of God. That means that at least under some circumstances, one could be ignorant of God yet not be damned. You earlier suggested that all those who remained ignorant of God were damned, did you not?

Finish reading the catechism.

847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.

You are grouping those ignorant of god but granted grace with those merely ignorant of god. Grace is a built in exception.

I'm pleased that you took the time to actually read the thing for a few moments, though, even if you appear not to have understood why it is in tension with your earlier statements.

My earlier statement hasn’t changed.

A person ignorant of god = straight to hell
A person raised in another culture, but has heard of the RCC/Christianity/etc = straight to hell
A person mentally incapable of making a free choice to exclude or include god = straight to hell

Ossai

 

[Huntster]

Many thanks, Huntster, for a direct answer on your part.

You're welcome!

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Children are capable of great faith. As we grow and are infected with the diseases of doubt, pride, independence, etc., we lose our faith to knowledge.

This is true, but I don't think its a strong argument that we are, in fact, born with faith in a god.

That is not my premise. My point (and I believe Christ's point) is that children are naturally able to be faithful, and as we grow and rely more on knowledge, we cast faith away, especially faith in other people.

Children have faith in a great many things without adequate evidence. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy spring to mind. I don't think you are going to argue that children are not born with with a belief in Santa Claus-- they come to believe in Santa Claus after being told of his existence. How is that different from children coming to believe in a god after being told of his existence?

Children have faith in such things as Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc because they have faith in their parents, who appear to confirm those tales when the children are young. As they grow, and doubt comes from older childrens, then parents finally relent to the truth, that actually helps kill faith in others for the child.

Children coming to believe in God is a similar phenomenon, except we don't truly know if God exists or not at the same level that we know there is no Easter Bunny. But, nevertheless, as the child grows, they come to rely on knowledge more than faith.

 

[Tricky]

This is true, but I don't think its a strong argument that we are, in fact, born with faith in a god.
Children have faith in a great many things without adequate evidence. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy spring to mind. I don't think you are going to argue that children are not born with with a belief in Santa Claus-- they come to believe in Santa Claus after being told of his existence. How is that different from children coming to believe in a god after being told of his existence?

Exactly. To say that children have great faith is to say that their minds are pretty much blank slates onto which we can write any damn thing we please, regardless of how ill-supported.

 

[Tricky]

Children coming to believe in God is a similar phenomenon, except we don't truly know if God exists or not at the same level that we know there is no Easter Bunny. But, nevertheless, as the child grows, they come to rely on knowledge more than faith.

Really? Why don't you give us an example of the "knowledge" on which your belief in God is based? If you can find a single example that cannot be distilled down to "faith", then it will be a first in my experience.

 

[Huntster]

To say that children have great faith is to say that their minds are pretty much blank slates onto which we can write any damn thing we please, regardless of how ill-supported.

It's true. They don't possess the knowledge to know otherwise.

Later, the lies get discovered, and faith takes a hit.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Children coming to believe in God is a similar phenomenon, except we don't truly know if God exists or not at the same level that we know there is no Easter Bunny. But, nevertheless, as the child grows, they come to rely on knowledge more than faith.

Really? Why don't you give us an example of the "knowledge" on which your belief in God is based? If you can find a single example that cannot be distilled down to "faith", then it will be a first in my experience.

How did you reverse that?

I don't have enough knowledge of God to establish whether or not he exists. That's why I rely on faith.

I think I have enough knowledge to establish there is no Easter Bunny. Therefore, I have no faith that it is true.

 

[Tricky]

How did you reverse that?

I don't have enough knowledge of God to establish whether or not he exists. That's why I rely on faith.

By this:

Children coming to believe in God is a similar phenomenon, except we don't truly know if God exists or not at the same level that we know there is no Easter Bunny. But, nevertheless, as the child grows, they come to rely on knowledge more than faith.

Except, apparently, when it comes to God. You stop believing in the Easter Bunny when it becomes evident that there is no actual "knowledge" of the Easter Bunny. Yet this same mechanism does not seem to work when the subject is God. You say that as people grow up, they come to rely upon knowledge more than faith, then you immediately set out to show that you haven't "grown up" with regard to God, since you still rely completely on faith.

 

[zizzybaluba]

Children have faith in such things as Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc because they have faith in their parents, who appear to confirm those tales when the children are young. As they grow, and doubt comes from older childrens, then parents finally relent to the truth, that actually helps kill faith in others for the child.

Children coming to believe in God is a similar phenomenon, except we don't truly know if God exists or not at the same level that we know there is no Easter Bunny. But, nevertheless, as the child grows, they come to rely on knowledge more than faith.

Ok. I see where you are coming from, but I don’t agree.

You’re saying (or at least how I’m interpreting what you are saying) that the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy differ from God in that their existence is trivially falsifiable (even to a child), while the existence of God is not.

Now, for a hypothetical example, let’s change the Santa Claus myth for a moment. Say that a child’s parents tell him or her that Santa Claus has magical powers; among them, invisibility, the ability to stop time for all but himself, and the ability to manipulate the media to make it appear as if he does not exist. The parents have created a Santa Claus myth that (given that the parents are not caught in the act of putting presents under the tree) is no longer trivially falsifiable. His existence is not subject to test, as the myth is set up in such a way that there is no way to test. Would the child not believe in Santa for possibly far longer than otherwise, if the parents persist?

This is much the same as the God myth. You can’t get to God with any of the five senses. An improbable occurrence could be coincidence, yet is interpreted as God working in mysterious ways. The is a heaven awaiting believers after death, but there is no way for the departed to communicate with the living. The myth is set up such that the state of the universe where God exists does not differ in any humanly discernable way from that same universe minus God.

 

[jimlintott]

Children aren't born faithful. It's a brainwashing process. Once you can get people to have faith you can sell them anything. Exploiting the faithful is all religions have ever done.

First get them to buy the concept of faith and then by merely questioning that you can manipulate them easily.

Religious faith is a burden that clouds your mind and in extreme cases leads to mental illness.

I have no faith in faith.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
How did you reverse that?

I don't have enough knowledge of God to establish whether or not he exists. That's why I rely on faith.

....Except, apparently, when it comes to God. You stop believing in the Easter Bunny when it becomes evident that there is no actual "knowledge" of the Easter Bunny. Yet this same mechanism does not seem to work when the subject is God.

Duh.

I think it's pretty evident that a bunny rabbit doesn't travel the world over delivering eggs to children on the night before Easter morning.

God? Why not? We are not able to prove or disprove spiritual phenomenon yet.

We lack knowledge.

You say that as people grow up, they come to rely upon knowledge more than faith, then you immediately set out to show that you haven't "grown up" with regard to God, since you still rely completely on faith.

I lack knowledge. Proof. Either way.

 

[Huntster]

....Now, for a hypothetical example, let’s change the Santa Claus myth for a moment. Say that a child’s parents tell him or her that Santa Claus has magical powers; among them, invisibility, the ability to stop time for all but himself, and the ability to manipulate the media to make it appear as if he does not exist. The parents have created a Santa Claus myth that (given that the parents are not caught in the act of putting presents under the tree) is no longer trivially falsifiable. His existence is not subject to test, as the myth is set up in such a way that there is no way to test. Would the child not believe in Santa for possibly far longer than otherwise, if the parents persist?

Probably so.

This is much the same as the God myth. You can’t get to God with any of the five senses. An improbable occurrence could be coincidence, yet is interpreted as God working in mysterious ways. The is a heaven awaiting believers after death, but there is no way for the departed to communicate with the living. The myth is set up such that the state of the universe where God exists does not differ in any humanly discernable way from that same universe minus God.

And because of those things, we don't know. We either believe or doubt.

 

[Huntster]

Children aren't born faithful. It's a brainwashing process.

And children, lacking experience and knowledge, are easily sold a bill of goods.

Once you can get people to have faith you can sell them anything.

Yup.........if you're interested in such wickedness.

Exploiting the faithful is all religions have ever done.

While some in religious life have certainly done so, it is by no means all religions have ever done.

I have no faith in faith.

That is your right, and obviously your choice.

 

[Tricky]

I think it's pretty evident that a bunny rabbit doesn't travel the world over delivering eggs to children on the night before Easter morning.

And I think it is pretty evident that people aren't born to virgins, don't walk on water, don't return from the dead, in fact, don't do any of the "miracles" attributed to Christ.

God? Why not? We are not able to prove or disprove spiritual phenomenon yet.

You are not able to disprove the Easter Bunny either. You simply have no evidence for it and it goes against all verifiable experience. The same is true for spiritual phenomenon.

We lack knowledge.

Lack of knowledge is a poor reason for believing in something for which you lack knowledge.

I lack knowledge. Proof. Either way.

My position has always been that outside of math and logic, there is no such thing as "proof". There is only evidence. The more evidence, the more a thing should win acceptance, in my opinion. Things with zero evidence should have zero acceptance.

 

[Paulhoff]

I think it's pretty evident that a bunny rabbit doesn't travel the world over delivering eggs to children on the night before Easter morning.

It is not, how would a child not know this to be true, because the name god was not used, do you think a child in anyway has the concept of the number of people, time needed etc.

Paul



Being an adult you should know better then this, are am I assuming to much.

 

[Paulhoff]

Children are born with trust, if you want to call this faith, so be it. This is needed in order to survive. And at first the parent is godlike to the child even if the child does not know the concept. So if a child believes something a parent tells them that is just normal. The problem is that this can become a major problem and often does when the child gets old enough to know enough to catch a parent in a lie. That many times happens before they hit their teens, so when the teen years hormones kick in, there is pandemonium in the house.

Moral, keep you lies to yourself about god.

Paul

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
I think it's pretty evident that a bunny rabbit doesn't travel the world over delivering eggs to children on the night before Easter morning.

It is not

Then, the Easter Bunny is real for you.

how would a child not know this to be true

They wouldn't. That's my point.

because the name god was not used

Huh?

do you think a child in anyway has the concept of the number of people, time needed etc.

No. That's the point. Because they don't possess enough knowledge to know otherwise, and because their parents tell them it's true, they believe.

Being an adult you should know better then this

I do. Unlike yourself, I don't believe the Easter Bunny exists.

are am I assuming to much.

It looks like you make a habit of it.